Spaceman spiff
Noble
Also Covid can cause all sorts of long term effects, some which might be permanent and crippling to some unlucky people. Flu doesn't.
dlw
Saved by grace
Non smoking gun
Honorable
Recently had my second jab, AstraZeneca, which according to the leaflet is:
Recombinant, replication-deficient chimpanzee adenovirus vector encoding the SARS-Cov-2 Spike glycoprotein.
Produced in genetically modified human embryonic kidney (HEK) 293 cells.
Interestingly the guy said we now have to ask an extra question:
'Have you heard of capillary leak syndrome?'
Apparently it is when plasma leaks through the capillary walls. Not sure why that is being asked.
It does occur that from the reactions of many major governments, they may have known this was a weaponized lab product from day 1, and if so, what indications might there be they did?
Recombinant, replication-deficient chimpanzee adenovirus vector encoding the SARS-Cov-2 Spike glycoprotein.
Produced in genetically modified human embryonic kidney (HEK) 293 cells.
Interestingly the guy said we now have to ask an extra question:
'Have you heard of capillary leak syndrome?'
Apparently it is when plasma leaks through the capillary walls. Not sure why that is being asked.
It does occur that from the reactions of many major governments, they may have known this was a weaponized lab product from day 1, and if so, what indications might there be they did?
nivek
As Above So Below
Yeah there's many people who have been dealing with these long Covid symptoms since March last year...Also Covid does wreck the lungs causing long term damage in many cases...
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JahaRa
Noble
After reading all this my thoughts are that people should be taught how virus' spread and how to keep your immune system strong in junior high, with remedial lessons on washing hands properly (Properly) in grade school. I know two nurses who insist that you don't need soap to wash your hands. One of them, took that to mean you just dampen your hands and wipe with a paper towel to mean "wash your hands", even in nursing school she missed the lesson. When she worked in the hospital she got some horrible bacterial infection that was because she did not wash her hands between patients. The other brags about being an ER nurse. My friend who is a biologist said you don't need soap if you have time and enough water to rub your hands under running water for 3 or 4 minutes. Using soap properly (wet hands, rub soap thoroughly into your hands and under fingernails, then rinse thoroughly). It is something everyone in my family does because my maternal grandfather died of a viral meningitus and my paternal grandmother lost someone to a bacterial infection. My grandmothers were two women who would have been rich if they had bought stock in the Clorox company that they supported by cloroxing everything.
I have never had a flu shot. I got the Hong Kong flu when I was 11, in 1968. The whole family had it. Flu shots were available in 1971 (I think). That flu took a lot of people down and it was two winters (1968 & 1969). My brother, Mom and I were in bed for 2 weeks. After that my mom got the flu shot the first year it was out and it was worse. The doctor told her to never get another flu shot. Since then I don't think I have had the flu even once, but someone mentioned on this forum that the flu only lasts a couple of days, that is wrong. How long it lasts depends on a lot of things, and people who have low functioning immune systems can die from pneumonia due to influenza. The other thing is that there are a plethora of respiratory virus' out there that people think are the flu but are not. That's why they have tests for them now, since they do create a health risk for a population that is not minor.
Too much misinformation and lack of information is what causes a pandemic like the one we are experiencing now. This virus has had it's grip on the world for 2 years and may be another 2 years before it gets under control because it is Not like the flu, 1. because it is not seasonal, like hot weather as well as cold, people are crowded even more than in the 60's (for a lot of reasons, lots of small towns are ghost towns now....)
I have never had a flu shot. I got the Hong Kong flu when I was 11, in 1968. The whole family had it. Flu shots were available in 1971 (I think). That flu took a lot of people down and it was two winters (1968 & 1969). My brother, Mom and I were in bed for 2 weeks. After that my mom got the flu shot the first year it was out and it was worse. The doctor told her to never get another flu shot. Since then I don't think I have had the flu even once, but someone mentioned on this forum that the flu only lasts a couple of days, that is wrong. How long it lasts depends on a lot of things, and people who have low functioning immune systems can die from pneumonia due to influenza. The other thing is that there are a plethora of respiratory virus' out there that people think are the flu but are not. That's why they have tests for them now, since they do create a health risk for a population that is not minor.
Too much misinformation and lack of information is what causes a pandemic like the one we are experiencing now. This virus has had it's grip on the world for 2 years and may be another 2 years before it gets under control because it is Not like the flu, 1. because it is not seasonal, like hot weather as well as cold, people are crowded even more than in the 60's (for a lot of reasons, lots of small towns are ghost towns now....)
michael59
Celestial
I mentioned that the flu only lasts a couple of days, JaHaRa. I was referring to the fact that it only lasts that long if I get any symptoms compared to my sister who got the shot every year and ended up down for days because of it, every year.
I have a strong immune system.
I have a strong immune system.
pigfarmer
tall, thin, irritable
Yes indeed. The lax procedures I saw in this area's brand new huge hospital with it's literally brand new covid ward were horrifying. Later I got a really good look see at a local nursing home. This is why I say there is a disconnect, a credibility gap, between what we are being told and what is actually being done.
In that regard, in NY our governor won an Emmy, wrote a book about his superior leadership in this crisis. All the colors in the Crayola box zones all over the place, hours long daily briefings. Rules and mandates, all of which I complied with. None of that now, in fact absolutely no one in state government is saying much of anything about it including the Lt.Gov. Kathy Hockeypuck who is about to step in. Everyone's too worried about Andy's hands and his booby grabbing. I wonder if he washed them properly before he was feeling up his staff (his staff. wow, that was unintentional but I like it)
AD1184
Celestial
Did either bother to read the paper concerned? I did.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261951v1.full.pdf
I don't think their interpretations are correct. This is the table
Note that all four categories (natural infection, mRNA vaccine (BNT/BNT), adenovirus-vector vaccine (ChAd/ChAd), and mixed adenovirus vector and mRNA (ChAd/BNT)) have the same "1.00" value against the wild-type strain, and a "(reference)" remark is put against the wild-type strain in the confidence interval ("CI") column. This means that the figures that appear below against Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Delta for each of the three vaccination regimens and natural infection are in comparison only against that regimen's performance against the wild-type strain. They are not for comparison between different regimens.
If it was the case that the 1.03 figure against Delta for the natural infection with the wild-type strain was comparable against the 0.82 and 0.85 for ChAd/ChAd and BNT/BNT vaccination, and indicating a better response than those, then it would mean that the all four regimens have exactly the same neutralizing response against the wild-type strain, which is implausible, as there are at least small differences in effectiveness between the vaccines.
Furthermore, something else that the twits on Twitter do not bother to mention is that the confidence intervals for all four regimens' neutralizing response against Delta relative to the wild-type strain all show significant overlap, especially for natural infection, BNT/BNT, and ChAd/ChAd. There is therefore insufficient information in this table to conclude that there is any difference between these regimens in their neutralizing effect against Delta.
What the study does show are some more figures here:
Which show that the quantities of neutralizing anti-bodies twelve months post-infection are much lower than those they measured in vaccinated individuals (the scale is logarithmic, 10^0 = 1, 10^1 = 10, 10^2 = 100).
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261951v1.full.pdf
Still further, the paper is not a real-world study of immunity, as in it did not assess the actual relative likelihood of people within the different regimens coming down with Covid-19 from any circulating strain.
The conclusion of the twitterers is not a conclusion of the study authors, and they are clearly skimming medical pre-prints looking for factoids to share with their uninformed followers on Twitter, rather than attempting to confer an understanding of studies in their full context.
Even if their analysis were somehow correct, what exactly is their point? There is no more wild-type SARS-CoV-2 circulating any more, so where are you going to get it as a substitute for vaccination? Getting infected with any type of SARS-CoV-2 puts you and those around you in significant danger of serious illness and can lead to a sustained chain of onward infection that can jeopardize the health of many people. The point of the vaccines is that they prime your immune system with an ability to fight SARS-CoV-2 prior to infection, and in a way that greatly reduces your risk of serious illness and death, and they are good at doing that. So what if they were a few percentage points less effective than natural infection? You get to avoid the risk of natural infection with an initially naive immune system.
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nivek
As Above So Below
Excellent, I think you said it well, I read through the study this morning with coffee and agree with you, the twitter comments are incorrect...Sometimes I'll post stuff that I haven't read through but intend on reading later when I have more time so that others here can read it too and draw their own conclusions...The term 'wild-type' is kind of an odd choice of words to me but perhaps because I don't think any humans were infected with a wild variety of SARS-CoV-2, instead it was an engineered variety from the beginning that escaped or was released from a lab...
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AD1184
Celestial
Wild type is just what the study authors have gone for as a label for the strain that appeared in Wuhan in 2019.
nivek
As Above So Below
Yeah, it just sounds a little off to me, maybe a bit PC too with the implication in the wording of that label?...But then again I didn't like them changing the labeling of the strains either...History will still tell the origin of viruses and variants even if they scrub it from the labeling...
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AD1184
Celestial
Asking what provides better immunity out of being vaccinated or having been infected with the original strain last year is not a sensible question to my mind. Or at least, the answer to that question provides only a small piece of information of limited usefulness which does not settle anything, nor gives a firm guide of what action we should be taking.
What about being vaccinated after being infected with the original strain/Alpha? Or being vaccinated first and then infected with Delta? Are these not equally useful questions to ask? In addition to the immune effectiveness of those, what are the relative risks to the individual? Given a choice, and given that you had never previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2, would you rather be infected before being vaccinated, or after being vaccinated? I would definitely go with the latter.
What about being vaccinated after being infected with the original strain/Alpha? Or being vaccinated first and then infected with Delta? Are these not equally useful questions to ask? In addition to the immune effectiveness of those, what are the relative risks to the individual? Given a choice, and given that you had never previously been infected with SARS-CoV-2, would you rather be infected before being vaccinated, or after being vaccinated? I would definitely go with the latter.
AD1184
Celestial
They have probably tried to be politically correct, and to avoid controversy. They may also be firm believers that it did originate in nature and crossed over to humans, rather than being agnostic on the issue.
HAL9000
Honorable
Just found out that I no longer have to self isolate just because my wife tested positive early this week.
As from 16 August I can roam free as long as I observe the usual precautions.
We were both expecting to have to stay in for ten days.
We are both double-jabbed.I tested negative.
As from 16 August I can roam free as long as I observe the usual precautions.
We were both expecting to have to stay in for ten days.
We are both double-jabbed.I tested negative.
dr wu
Noble
Regarding the original thread question ,as I said before, other than causing some problems with my office and going to certain places , etc it hasn't affected us that much. No one suffered any side effects from covid or the vaccine and everyone was able to work eventually ,etc. No one in my family suffered any major hardship.
Sadly it did cause economic hardship to many and of course sickness and death to many.
To me what is a bit strange is the vaccine hesitations this time around in 2020 and 2021. I grew up with polio and smallpox vaccines in the mid 50's and all the others. I actually had measles , mumps, and chicken pox. Later of course all kids (most) were vaccinated for these diseases. No one I knew had any problems except for the ones who didn't or were unable to receive the polio vaccine. No one complained or questioned the reasons for the vaccines as far as I knew..but I was a kid.
Maybe these were better vaccines in the past....I have no idea not being an infectious disease expert but no one I know this time around had any problems either. Nothing is perfect . No medicne is 100% effective and free of any and all side effects and no doubt some had some issues. But I don't recall people being anti medicine back then nor did my parents ever talk about any protests or large sections of people bad mouthing the vaccines.
Why is this such an issue now? What has changed? Is this about rushing the vaccine process or is there something else going on with those who are against the vaccine? What has changed in the minds of people in 65 years or so?
Sadly it did cause economic hardship to many and of course sickness and death to many.
To me what is a bit strange is the vaccine hesitations this time around in 2020 and 2021. I grew up with polio and smallpox vaccines in the mid 50's and all the others. I actually had measles , mumps, and chicken pox. Later of course all kids (most) were vaccinated for these diseases. No one I knew had any problems except for the ones who didn't or were unable to receive the polio vaccine. No one complained or questioned the reasons for the vaccines as far as I knew..but I was a kid.
Maybe these were better vaccines in the past....I have no idea not being an infectious disease expert but no one I know this time around had any problems either. Nothing is perfect . No medicne is 100% effective and free of any and all side effects and no doubt some had some issues. But I don't recall people being anti medicine back then nor did my parents ever talk about any protests or large sections of people bad mouthing the vaccines.
Why is this such an issue now? What has changed? Is this about rushing the vaccine process or is there something else going on with those who are against the vaccine? What has changed in the minds of people in 65 years or so?
Spaceman spiff
Noble
There was a scandal in Finland about a decade ago when the new and swiftly put out Swine Flu Vaccine apparently caused narcolepsy in some 200 people, including largely children who took it. It was largely in the media, and is still talked about. Some of the parents and families still have to fight for anyone to carry responsibility on that and to get some reparations.
It probably affected hugely on the current vaccine skepticism here. As who's to say history will not repeat itself eventually? If it will, you cannot sue the medicine companies, as they have put it so they don't have to be accountable. This certainly does not help alleviate the worry and skepticism of these people.
It probably affected hugely on the current vaccine skepticism here. As who's to say history will not repeat itself eventually? If it will, you cannot sue the medicine companies, as they have put it so they don't have to be accountable. This certainly does not help alleviate the worry and skepticism of these people.
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dlw
Saved by grace
More vaccine deaths in 2020 - 2021 than all 30 years before. Any one still consider the covid shots safe?
Covid Statistics Death
Covid Statistics Death