Iconic Australian destination for tourists now permanently closed .

August

Metanoia
One of Australia's most iconic tourist destinations has been permanently closed down. Uluru ( formerly knows as Ayres Rock) in Central Australia is not off limits to all people who may wish to climb it.

Uluru closed to climbers after vote of national park board

Uluru+NP+01.JPG
 

Castle-Yankee54

Celestial
Probably not a bad idea in the long run......people don't know their own limitations. The government is probably tired of getting sued by idiots.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Probably not a bad idea in the long run......people don't know their own limitations. The government is probably tired of getting sued by idiots.
Actually it is the local indigenous community that has forced the restriction. Which I personally think is an insult to All Australians, and before someone calls me racist. My best mate as a kid was aboriginal, and my sister in law's Dad was full blood.
Here is my opinion on native title. History tells us that Aboriginal culture is full of wars over territory.
Yes, there were wars between Aboriginal Australians. We have some evidence for this:

1) The existence of wooden shields. Shields only exist in order to block the weapons of others, and do not have utility for hunting (unlike knives and clubs), so therefore demonstrate that fighting was taking place.

2) Australian rock art dating back at least 10,000 years depicts fighting scenes using weaponry.

3) Research by anthropologists since the mid-19th century has witnessed wars between Aboriginal Australian tribes. Not only did wars take place over hunting territory or ownership of wells, but also over the abduction of women.

These conflicts between tribes often resulted in long-running feuds, as a result of 'payback law', whereby a raid will cause retaliation from the other tribe. These could be devastating - anthropologist T.G.H. Strelow witnessed a three year conflict that killed 20% of the population of the tribes conducting the war.

I am no anthropologist myself, so you might get a better response from /r/Anthropology, but as far as I understand it, Aboriginal Australian tribes did not structure themselves in such a way that would result in a kings/lords/subjects relationship, and war was not fought for these reasons. Aboriginal Australian tribes were led by the elders of the group, and they fought to defend/gain hunting land/access to water/women, not to subjugate other people. But as I say /r/Anthropology may know better than me.

Source: Azar Gat War in Human Civilization, pp. 17-25
This is a pretty well established historic fact. They killed each other over land, women and resources.
What we did as invaders 200 odd years ago was atrocious and not a highlight in decent human behavior.
However, how is it any different to a tribal war between Aboriginal regions. What we did was shit, but no different to what they did to each other for tens of thousands of years.
If you accept that the world is about 4.5 billion years old, as a percentage, lets take 10,000 years of aboriginal ownership of Australia.

They have owned Uluru for .0002% of that 4.5 billion years.
White Australians have been here 200
We have had it .000004% of 4.5 billion years.

I believe in the utmost respect for all cultures, including aboriginal culture.
But this traditional tribal ownership irks me.
Who can say how long the current traditional owners of Uluru have called it theirs, should they then hand back ownership to whatever tribe they may have fought over it.


So neither of us have owned it for very long.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Also, if I remember correctly just to even get close to it to have a look it was something like $25 per adult and $115 for kids or similar. When I took my family there the last time it was over $100 it cost us. That is an insult, it is my Australia too. I was born here.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
This is a problem that I had never thought about.

The Aboriginal claims are based on whoever won the previous tribal war and was squatting on the territory.

Recognition of the tribal claims enshrines for perpetuity a snapshot of a transient situation.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
This is a problem that I had never thought about.

The Aboriginal claims are based on whoever won the previous tribal war and was squatting on the territory.

Recognition of the tribal claims enshrines for perpetuity a snapshot of a transient situation.
And the exact reason I have always had a problem with so called native title. My thoughts on it are very politically incorrect here in Australia and libel to have me labeled many things I am not. But the simple truth is that any given patch of ground although claimed by certain tribes now, may not have been the historic owners throughout history, so to follow the theme of native title, do they have to then give it back to whomever they may have killed for it 1, 2, 3000 years ago? Where does it stop? We are a white tribe who took it off them, if we have to give it back, why shouldn't they? And in turn, the ones before that, and so on. ULURU has some pretty strong significance for me, my first visits were as a young man, when I ran to the top in a pretty good time on my own, if you like to push a point, first walkabout away from home on my own. My second visits have great memories of camping and traveling with a German tourist, A punk rocker who at the time had the same surname as me and we didn't know it, with amazing memories, we had a dingo all but walk through our tent, nearly froze over a few nights, 3rd visit with my (now ex) wife, then girlfriend hitchhiking across Australia together as a first date, we traveled for ages with a lovely old couple we met called Bert and Pat and their Rottweiler Mitchell. 4the visit with my kids on a holiday that took us 27000km over a year. All very very significant to me any my family history I was not part of the first fleet, I have never committed genocide, of killed or disrespected any aboriginal. Now however all my own cultural and family heritage with respect to ULURU is lost on the basis of native title that has only a verbal history and know proof of them being the owners for the last 10, 90 thousand years. Who knows how many tribal wars may have been faught over it in that time. I don't care if previous owners at some point were Female Amazonian warriors. It is not about race,or skin color. The simple truth is, we had a tribal war, we won, they lost. Its ours. If Japan had of won WW2 and succesfully made it to our shores, it would have been theirs.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
In the US many of the tribes were nomadic or semi-nomadic.

Discussing land claims in this situation acquires an air of unreality.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
In the US many of the tribes were nomadic or semi-nomadic.

Discussing land claims in this situation acquires an air of unreality.
Yes, it is a common misconception about the Australian Aboriginal that they were Nomadic, well they sort of were, but not really. What people fail to understand is the size of Australia's open areas. We used to have a single cattle station in Queensland that was bigger than the whole state of Texas. So an individual tribes land may take a hell of a long time to walk across, and the borders were often marked simply by an outcrop of rocks, or band of trees or water hole. So while Nomadic within their own tribal land I suppose could be argued, there wee all sorts of protocols and permissions and penalties and fights if you crossed into another tribes land. So while the illusion of being nomadic was there, they were not really, not in the classic sense at least where it was Ok to wander from the NT to Victoria stopping wherever the conditions were good..
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
For Example...
Anna Creek Station has an area of roughly 6,000,000 acres (24,000 km2; 9,400 sq mi) which is slightly larger than Israel. It is 1,977,000 acres (8,000 km2; 3,089 sq mi) larger than its nearest rival, Alexandria Station in the country's Northern Territory and over seven times the size of the United States' biggest ranch, King Ranch in Texas, which is 825,000 acres (3,340 km2; 1,289 sq mi).[3] As of 16 December 2016, the station is owned by the Williams Cattle Company, a family business that bought Anna Creek from S. Kidman & Co, doubling their total area held under pastoral leases. The nearest township is William Creek (which is surrounded by the Anna Creek station), but the nearest town for freight is Coober Pedy.[\quote]
Anna Creek Station - Wikipedia

So to go walkabout in Australia....requires a little tenacity :)
 

August

Metanoia
More than 40 people have died attempting to climb Uluru, its a dangerous climb and if you slip or fall there is absolutely nothing to stop you falling to your death.

uluru-ayers-rock-australie-22.jpg
 

August

Metanoia
Yes, it is a common misconception about the Australian Aboriginal that they were Nomadic, well they sort of were, but not really. What people fail to understand is the size of Australia's open areas. We used to have a single cattle station in Queensland that was bigger than the whole state of Texas. So an individual tribes land may take a hell of a long time to walk across, and the borders were often marked simply by an outcrop of rocks, or band of trees or water hole. So while Nomadic within their own tribal land I suppose could be argued, there wee all sorts of protocols and permissions and penalties and fights if you crossed into another tribes land. So while the illusion of being nomadic was there, they were not really, not in the classic sense at least where it was Ok to wander from the NT to Victoria stopping wherever the conditions were good..

Going 'walkabout' was something the aboriginals practiced.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
Yes, it is a common misconception about the Australian Aboriginal that they were Nomadic, well they sort of were, but not really. What people fail to understand is the size of Australia's open areas. We used to have a single cattle station in Queensland that was bigger than the whole state of Texas. So an individual tribes land may take a hell of a long time to walk across, and the borders were often marked simply by an outcrop of rocks, or band of trees or water hole. So while Nomadic within their own tribal land I suppose could be argued, there wee all sorts of protocols and permissions and penalties and fights if you crossed into another tribes land. So while the illusion of being nomadic was there, they were not really, not in the classic sense at least where it was Ok to wander from the NT to Victoria stopping wherever the conditions were good..

You're speaking Australian again.

I had to look up what a cattle station is. You mean a ranch.

The current largest Australian cattle ranch is about 7 times large than the largest US ranch. It is only the size of Israel. But it is located in Australia where property values are much lower.

Anna Creek Station is only 9,140 square miles (it is something more in square kilometers). Texas is 268,581 square miles (29 times larger). Australia is 2,967,892 miles (2,942,282 square miles with the water removed). So to be true your "cattle station the size of Texas" would have to be 1/11th of Australia.

List of the largest stations in Australia - Wikipedia
There is apparently some dispute about the size of Anna Creek Station. There are two different sizes given. This either means that Australians are really shitty surveyors, or the 9,400 square miles includes leased land.

Further in 2007 it only had 1500 cattle. That is one cow for every 6 square miles.

The King Ranch has over 23,000 head (more than twice the current number on the Australian ranch) and at times has branded 25,000 head. It probably has more than 23,000 asses as well.
 
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August

Metanoia
Anna Creek Station has an area of roughly 6,000,000 acres (24,000 km2; 9,400 sq mi) which is slightly larger than Israel. It is 1,977,000 acres (8,000 km2; 3,089 sq mi) larger than its nearest rival, Alexandria Station in the country's Northern Territory and over seven times the size of the United States' biggest ranch, King Ranch in Texas, which is 825,000 acres (3,340 km2; 1,289 sq mi).[3] As of 16 December 2016, the station is owned by the Williams Cattle Company, a family business that bought Anna Creek from S. Kidman & Co, doubling their total area held under pastoral leases. The nearest township is William Creek (which is surrounded by the Anna Creek station), but the nearest town for freight is Coober Pedy.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Y
More than 40 people have died attempting to climb Uluru, its a dangerous climb and if you slip or fall there is absolutely nothing to stop you falling to your death.

uluru-ayers-rock-australie-22.jpg
Yep, its bloody dangerous. I ran it in 28 mins plus some seconds when I was about 19. Would take me about 28 hours now.
 
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