Mass shooting in Texas.

Ras

Honorable
All valid points that I wont try to dispute.
However there are a great many shootings with Military style weapons.
So tell me if you can,
As a hunter, and or, for home protection. Why does any US citizen NEED an assault rifle?
I am not asking about your rights, or likes, I am asking NEED

Yeah there are too many shootings in US, i think they need to do something about the guns. The guns are the problem imo.
 

Apollo

Adept
It was on his own Facebook apparently.

No, no it was not. There was a Photoshop circulating showing part of his fb page with an antifa flag shopped onto it.

The person who is actually in the photo with the antifa flag is the admin of the Antifa United website. He has come forward and claimed the photo as his. It was in fact a product photo for their flag, which they sell on their site.

Let's be clear about something while we're at this. I do not give a rats ass about antifa or defending them. But what I do care for, and why I spend time on sites such as alien expanse, is seeking the truth.

We need to take our partison hats off and stop fueling confirmation bias when tragedy happens. The left and right are both so quick to politicize the hell out of these tragedies, it's actually sickening.

For the record authorities are reporting now that there seems to be no religious or political motive involved. This seems to be something domestically motivatied. Kelly had sent threatening messsges to his mother in law. And then attacked a church where his wife's family worships. Apparently he killed his wife's grandmother in the attack.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Gun control is not going to stop a criminal from having a gun.

Death should be immediate for anyone using a gun to harm civilians.

Sickos often intend to die, but they want to take out others first, which makes no sense. But if it isnt a gun, its a car, or something else.
Define a criminal!
A criminal who is for example a member of organized crime of some nature who is going to carry out a hit on a rival. Yep, your right, they will always have guns. But how many times in these mass shootings we so often see in the US is this the case?

But what about you Kchoo, right now your not a criminal, just a normal citizen like me. If you wig out tomorrow and grab an Assault rifle and go on a rampage, your not a criminal till that first bullet hits its first victim.
Until that point you are allowed to go buy an Assault rifle. In this case I believe the system fell down and he go one when he shouldn't, but their proliferation is such I believe it would have made little difference.

In Australia when these types of weapons were legal, they were easy to buy new, 2nd hand, find lying in grandads wardrobe. After our laws changes, and now a couple of decades on. We have had multiple gun amnesty's where they can be handed in no questions asked, many police raids where they have been found and seized.
Honestly, I am a gun owner, my family members own guns. And I can tell you I would not even know where to start to find a weapon like that. I don't doubt there are a few stubborn old timers out there with the oddone under a floorboard. But when they hand in their knives and forks, likely as not that will be another Semi Auto handed in by their kids at the next Gun Amnesty. One more off the streets.
So Gun control will work if enforced country wide, and given enough time. It has worked in Australia.
I am not saying take away all your guns. Just the insane ones that private citizens have no logical need for.

Here is a gun similar to one of mine.
Here is a mad minute with a 303, with someone aiming.
Guy no 1 gets 16 out of 18 hits. Guy no 2 gets 10 out of 15 hits.
They are using stripper clips to help reload speed
Best guy 18 aimed shots in 1 minute.
There are folks who do better without aiming
And yes its an old gun but you are still looking at similar results with a modern bolt action.


This one is hard to tell, but I think I counted about 50 shots in 10 seconds
We dont see a reload but assuming even 15 seconds thats still 100 shots in a minute.
Still Semi Auto I think as his finger sounds like it gets tired and slows down.


Here is what you can buy in the US,
Do I really need to count them to make my point.
I counted anyway, roughly, I think about 250 rounds in a minute.
 

Kchoo

At Peace.
My point was that a person who wigs out and decides to kill people will find a way to do it... You can maybe stop people from killing with guns by taking them away... But can you stop a wacko from killing a group of people?

What are your statistics for murders by other methods?

(I personally don't like personal armaments/guns in general, but that is my personal choice. To me, a split half second bad decision is a reason I would not want one)
 
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Dundee

Fading day by day.
My point was that a person who wigs out and decides to kill people will find a way to do it... You can maybe stop people from killing with guns by taking them away... But can you stop a wacko from killing a group of people?

What are your statistics for murders by other methods?

(I personally don't like personal armaments/guns in general, but that is my personal choice. To me, a split half second bad decision is a reason I would not want one)
Yes i agree, they will always find a way to do it. But maybe if they have no access to guns of this type it will be with a lesser weapon. And if it saves just a few lives then that is a good thing. In that church had he had my 303, 1st time he had to reload perhaps another brave person could have dropped him.

As for stats for other methods, what does that matter. My stats are work on them too. If someone has a clever way to do it. Metal detectors at airports. Bollards at public events to stop vehicles. We do what we can to stop these wacko's. There is no magic answer, but every successful idea implemented may save a life or many lives.

As for your last comment, that is a very important point. I believe that fits the crime of passion category. Where a normally decent person gets pushed across some line and wigs out making a bad decision. I believe a lot of perhaps not shootings of this nature but others are crimes of passion. Again, with a lesser gun, lesser deaths.
 

Kchoo

At Peace.
There is also the original intent of the right of people to own weapons as needed to help defend their country against tyranny....

It is a power that many will die to defend.

When they say "Come and take it" it means they wont be nice about it.

I know several people who own powerful weapons specifically with that purpose in mind. The more politicians try to push the issue the more ammunition is bought.

They are making their statement with stockpiles of arsenals.... And they will use every round before they give up, or die trying. Thats their right and they arent asking for it.

They demand it.
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
I am an NRA life member and carrying my Glock 26 as I write this, I have 40+ firearms. That being said, I am not a "come and take it" kind of guy and most of my collection are non-autoloading designs with roots in the 19th century. My take is this. I don't approve of gun bans in general mainly for this reason: every government that enacts a gun ban of any sort neatly exempts itself from the ban. You can see this in places like New York and California, where police are armed to the teeth with hi-cap magazines and "assault" weapons and an ordinary citizen would catch a felony for possessing the same.

If such weapons have no legitimate place in civil society, and are suitable only for military use, why do these same jurisdictions spend millions on such weapons for police forces? I have heard all the clap-trap answers like "these are tools they need to do their job" and so on. The job of police is not to commit offensive assaults and kill as many enemies as they can, that is the job of the military. Yet, the gun ban advocates would have us believe that these weapons are good for nothing else. So, which is it? "Assault" weapons and hi-cap mags actually can be used for lawful purposes by a person of average intelligence, which begs the question of why one small group of citizens receives more "equal" treatment than others because of their choice of occupation. Or, these weapons in fact are of no use other than killing people in a most efficient manner which leads one to wonder why civil police forces need such fearsome ordnance.

If my government will not trust me with a particular weapon, why should I trust my government or it's agents to have one?
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
I am an NRA life member and carrying my Glock 26 as I write this, I have 40+ firearms. That being said, I am not a "come and take it" kind of guy and most of my collection are non-autoloading designs with roots in the 19th century. My take is this. I don't approve of gun bans in general mainly for this reason: every government that enacts a gun ban of any sort neatly exempts itself from the ban. You can see this in places like New York and California, where police are armed to the teeth with hi-cap magazines and "assault" weapons and an ordinary citizen would catch a felony for possessing the same.

If such weapons have no legitimate place in civil society, and are suitable only for military use, why do these same jurisdictions spend millions on such weapons for police forces? I have heard all the clap-trap answers like "these are tools they need to do their job" and so on. The job of police is not to commit offensive assaults and kill as many enemies as they can, that is the job of the military. Yet, the gun ban advocates would have us believe that these weapons are good for nothing else. So, which is it? "Assault" weapons and hi-cap mags actually can be used for lawful purposes by a person of average intelligence, which begs the question of why one small group of citizens receives more "equal" treatment than others because of their choice of occupation. Or, these weapons in fact are of no use other than killing people in a most efficient manner which leads one to wonder why civil police forces need such fearsome ordnance.

If my government will not trust me with a particular weapon, why should I trust my government or it's agents to have one?
Because the vetting and training for our police is such that they are supposed to be better than us. They are supposed to be accountable for what they do. Honest question as I don't live in the US. We see all the time questionable shootings of civilians by police. it always makes the news. Where a Police officer kills an unarmed man somewhere and all hell breaks loose. But I don't recall a Police officer wigging out with an Assault rifle? But then I don't live there.
So if it is only a case of perceived politics then pardon me but stiff bikies. Because politics has many viewpoints, but the safety of the masses is paramount and in my opinion over rides your right to own crazy Military Weapons.
So your argument does not convince me.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
There is also the original intent of the right of people to own weapons as needed to help defend their country against tyranny....

It is a power that many will die to defend.

When they say "Come and take it" it means they wont be nice about it.

I know several people who own powerful weapons specifically with that purpose in mind. The more politicians try to push the issue the more ammunition is bought.

They are making their statement with stockpiles of arsenals.... And they will use every round before they give up, or die trying. Thats their right and they arent asking for it.

They demand it.
Can't you see the Irony in this?
People with a political view and a will to stand by this with violence.
Seeing any parallel's here?
Change the law for the good of the many and they become the same problem as we have seen in Texas.
In my country they are called criminals. Not people standing up for there rights.
Where do you draw the line if folks are willing to bear arms for any Law they don't want changed.
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
Is that needed in your area to fend off attackers, or to stay safe ?

Glad you asked. It would be useful to fend off attackers, if needed. I live in a rural area with poor cell phone service. There is no guarantee I could get the police on the phone if I needed them and, even if I could, it would take a minimum of twenty minutes for them to reach where I live. Not all attackers are human, either. We have lots of coyotes, stray dogs, and even some black bears where I live.

Really, the main reason I carry is because I choose to do so. I have been hunting and shooting since before I could say my ABC's. It feels perfectly natural and normal to have a gun with me at all times and I do so safely and legally. If anyone chooses otherwise that is perfectly fine with me.
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
Because the vetting and training for our police is such that they are supposed to be better than us. They are supposed to be accountable for what they do. Honest question as I don't live in the US. We see all the time questionable shootings of civilians by police. it always makes the news. Where a Police officer kills an unarmed man somewhere and all hell breaks loose. But I don't recall a Police officer wigging out with an Assault rifle? But then I don't live there.
So if it is only a case of perceived politics then pardon me but stiff bikies. Because politics has many viewpoints, but the safety of the masses is paramount and in my opinion over rides your right to own crazy Military Weapons.
So your argument does not convince me.

Sadly, the main criteria to become a cop in the USA are no criminal background, physical fitness, and a willingness to do what you are told. I used to work as a criminal records clerk for a big police department and some of those coppers would have been better off pushing a broom for a living or something similar.

Yes, police do "wig out" with their firearms. There have been numerous instances of cops pouring Gettysburg level firepower into someone who wasn't even armed, or in a case of mistaken identity. Case in point: back in the 2000's some undercover cops in New York city tried to stop a man in a car who had just left his own bachelor party. The cops were all in plainclothes and the man may have not recognized them as coppers. He drove his car towards one of them, which prompted all of the cops to empty their weapons into his vehicle. Something like seventy bullet holes were counted in addition to who knows how many rounds missed completely. The man was killed and it later became apparent that he was not even the one they were looking for!
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
Dundee, I wanted to add that I respect you and your posts are well written. We will probably just have to agree to disagree here, it's hard for me to dislike an SMLE fan!!
 

Kchoo

At Peace.
C
Can't you see the Irony in this?
People with a political view and a will to stand by this with violence.
Seeing any parallel's here?
Change the law for the good of the many and they become the same problem as we have seen in Texas.
In my country they are called criminals. Not people standing up for there rights.
Where do you draw the line if folks are willing to bear arms for any Law they don't want changed.

I draw the line at corrupt and abusive powers doing whatever they want....

I draw the line at anyone trying to break into my home...

In today's world, the unthinkable happens every day...

Protection is the biggest reason people want it... To stop these wackos... Fire back at the psychos before they can take out 40 plus church goers...
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Dundee, I wanted to add that I respect you and your posts are well written. We will probably just have to agree to disagree here, it's hard for me to dislike an SMLE fan!!
Lol, Cheers mate, no worries :)
I also have a Jungle Carbine with matching numbers, it has the wrong but on it though.
Its my pride and Joy. Can't shoot it straight, it has the wandering zero problem they all had. But I love it.
I plan to eventually get the Carcano etc etc that each country used in WW2
 

nivek

As Above So Below
Just tonight about an hour ago my neighbor who's about a 1/2 mile down the road was firing off his assault rifle, must have shot a few hundred rounds...We are in the county, not in the city limits, he's allowed to do that on his property...I don't hear it often, about twice or so a year he unloads it...
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
CI draw the line at corrupt and abusive powers doing whatever they want....
I was told by a detective on the drug squad at a wedding that there is a certain demographic in Australia that dominate the drug trade because culturally in their country they are doing nothing wrong. They are just making a living. He said they genuinely have a generation that thinks its OK.
Corruption is a matter of perspective. Laws are made for the benefit of all. Some of us break them in minor ways like perhaps being a few km over the speed limit and draw the line there. Others break greater laws.
You don't get to choose. That's why they are called laws.
When you say...
I draw the line at corrupt and abusive powers doing whatever they want
How far are you willing to go, bear arms, does this sound like a familiar pattern?
Don't you see, your attitude to this is the problem itself. Your perceived and interpreted rights versus your opinion of what the law is or isn't or should be. You don't get to make that call.

I draw the line at anyone trying to break into my home...
Me too, but you don't need an Assault rifle to defend it.
If you hear a burger at 3:00am, are you truly telling me your going to cut loose with an AK in your living room.
The bullets will kill half the neighborhood and anyone walking past. And if you do think this response is an option then in my opinion you don't deserve to own guns.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
Given we are dealing with insane people (I mean the progressives not the shooter) there is no reason to discuss gun control.

Following NYC Truck Attack Leadership Talks Gun Control - GunsAmerica Digest
Truck Attack, with pellet and paint ball guns, and they discuss gun control???

Really???

CRAZY NEW DETAILS: Texas Gunman Escaped From Mental Hospital in 2012
A shooter who is literally an escaped mental patient who beat his wife and fractured his kid's skull, and STILL only got a gun to shoot at his ex-in-laws church and kill his ex-grandmother-in-law because the Air Force misfiled his paperwork?

If gun restrictions don't stop this guy what is the point of having them?

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton Says Guns At Church Could Protect Against Shootings
NPR's Robert Siegel talks with Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, a Republican, about yesterday's mass shooting at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs. Paxton says worshippers should consider taking their guns to church to protect against such attacks.

At least someone has a sensible solution.

A good citizen saved the state about $4 million dollars by eradicating this pest. If more people had been armed he would have been stopped sooner.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Given we are dealing with insane people (I mean the progressives not the shooter) there is no reason to discuss gun control.

Following NYC Truck Attack Leadership Talks Gun Control - GunsAmerica Digest
Truck Attack, with pellet and paint ball guns, and they discuss gun control???

Really???

CRAZY NEW DETAILS: Texas Gunman Escaped From Mental Hospital in 2012
A shooter who is literally an escaped mental patient who beat his wife and fractured his kid's skull, and STILL only got a gun to shoot at his ex-in-laws church and kill his ex-grandmother-in-law because the Air Force misfiled his paperwork?

If gun restrictions don't stop this guy what is the point of having them?

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton Says Guns At Church Could Protect Against Shootings
NPR's Robert Siegel talks with Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, a Republican, about yesterday's mass shooting at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs. Paxton says worshippers should consider taking their guns to church to protect against such attacks.

At least someone has a sensible solution.

A good citizen saved the state about $4 million dollars by eradicating this pest. If more people had been armed he would have been stopped sooner.
Lol, Such a post needs no rebuttal :) Thank you for your post CB, you make my points for me. Good man :)
 

Kchoo

At Peace.
I was told by a detective on the drug squad at a wedding that there is a certain demographic in Australia that dominate the drug trade because culturally in their country they are doing nothing wrong. They are just making a living. He said they genuinely have a generation that thinks its OK.
Corruption is a matter of perspective. Laws are made for the benefit of all. Some of us break them in minor ways like perhaps being a few km over the speed limit and draw the line there. Others break greater laws.
You don't get to choose. That's why they are called laws.
When you say...
I draw the line at corrupt and abusive powers doing whatever they want
How far are you willing to go, bear arms, does this sound like a familiar pattern?
Don't you see, your attitude to this is the problem itself. Your perceived and interpreted rights versus your opinion of what the law is or isn't or should be. You don't get to make that call.


Me too, but you don't need an Assault rifle to defend it.
If you hear a burger at 3:00am, are you truly telling me your going to cut loose with an AK in your living room.
The bullets will kill half the neighborhood and anyone walking past. And if you do think this response is an option then in my opinion you don't deserve to own guns.

I imagine the people who were stormed by NAZIs and hauled off to concentration(death) camps believed as you do...

I imagine a shot gun is the best home defender gun there is.... I do not need anything more...

If a hundred armed ISIS soldiers start raiding homes on my street, I guarantee they will be met by multiple rapid fire assult rifles....
 
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