Nimitz encounters

[pigfarmer]

Been listening to Tim McMillan's interview on The Black Vault and the last few episodes of the Hidden Truth Show with Jim Breslo.

Just a couple of points I took away. One is that what had been Bigelow's privately funded interest got public funding. Don't think there's much dispute there but it's worth noting.

The other is that the Nimitz encounters took place long enough ago that the human memories involved have created the typical distortion. PJ Hughes and I believe Kevin Day say as much. Sounds like they and Fravor aren't necessarily on the same page.

ET doesn't seem to be their first choice as an explanation.

 

[wwkirk]

Been listening to Tim McMillan's interview on The Black Vault and the last few episodes of the Hidden Truth Show with Jim Breslo.

Just a couple of points I took away. One is that what had been Bigelow's privately funded interest got public funding. Don't think there's much dispute there but it's worth noting.

The other is that the Nimitz encounters took place long enough ago that the human memories involved have created the typical distortion. PJ Hughes and I believe Kevin Day say as much. Sounds like they and Fravor aren't necessarily on the same page.

ET doesn't seem to be their first choice as an explanation.

At least McMillan appeared to have obtained evidence supporting the claim that Elizondo was indeed the head of the AATIP "program," or whatever category of entity it was.

It's good to have that controversy cleared up.

 

[pigfarmer]

Yeah, McMillan did supply a little fill for Elizondo. The man sounds as if he was a high level and very competent intelligence officer. Which for me unfortunately, is part of the problem.

 

[wwkirk]

Yeah, McMillan did supply a little fill for Elizondo. The man sounds as if he was a high level and very competent intelligence officer. Which for me unfortunately, is part of the problem.

Let's face it. Those who are "in the know" (whatever that knowledge happens to be) are only going to reveal things selectively. And civilians simply do not have the resources to investigate UFOs and related phenomena as deeply as those connected with the military or intelligence agencies. Even McMillan is dependent on insiders who carefully control what he is allowed to learn or publish.

But as many have suggested, a considerable portion of recent UFO phenomena may in fact be terrestrial technology. If that's so, it's understandable that information about them would be classified, for the most part. Maybe limited information is being disseminated because the secret-keepers believe that the public, or a subset of it, can be an aid to them in some way.

One alternative would be if there really are alien visitors, from wherever, and they chose to reveal themselves to the world at large. However, I know that more than one UFO researcher has remarked that they evidently have no interest in doing that.

Yet another possibility would be for the aliens, if they really are visiting this world, to coherently communicate with a few selected individuals. But the obvious problem is that none of the people who have claimed to have been contacted have been able to provide strong evidence that it really happened. Strong enough to convince most open-minded skeptics, anyway. So either the alleged contactees are deluded, or just lying, or the aliens don't want to back them up in a decisive way.

 

[Thomas R. Morrison]

Let's face it. Those who are "in the know" (whatever that knowledge happens to be) are only going to reveal things selectively. And civilians simply do not have the resources to investigate UFOs and related phenomena as deeply as those connected with the military or intelligence agencies.

This is a critical point that many people choose to selectively overlook. The public simply does not have any access to the technologies that are required to observe anomalous activity in terrestrial airspace. The military does. And they control that intelligence through strict classification. That fact alone speaks volumes.

But as many have suggested, a considerable portion of recent UFO phenomena may in fact be terrestrial technology.

People can suggest this idea until they're blue in the face, but the fact remains that there is zero credible evidence that humanity has technologically achieved the radical performance characteristics that have been reported about AAVs for over 70 years, and even today our most brilliant Nobel laureate theoretical physicists have no idea how to go about developing these types of effects with any known terrestrial technology. So, contrary to popular belief, the extraterrestrial hypothesis is the more conservative explanation for the origin of these devices, because it doesn't require the additional and unsupported postulate that some secret sect of the defense industry has somehow leap-frogged far ahead of all terrestrial theoretical physics and engineering.

Yet another possibility would be for the aliens, if they really are visiting this world, to coherently communicate with a few selected individuals. But the obvious problem is that none of the people who have claimed to have been contacted have been able to provide strong evidence that it really happened. Strong enough to convince most open-minded skeptics, anyway. So either the alleged contactees are deluded, or just lying, or the aliens don't want to back them up in a decisive way.

For the sake of argument let's assume that the latter explanation applies to at least a few such contactee cases, because it's an interesting mental exercise.

What would be the consequences of a contactee being given decisive empirical proof of their contact story?

1.) It would force the world to accept the verifiable fact of alien visitation to our planet, just as surely as hovering a UFO over the White House for a few hours while news organizations broadcast the video footage all around the world. Are we as a civilization ready for that? Or would that scare the living bejeezus out of billions of people? The latter, I would think.

2.) What do you think would happen to a verified contactee? I would think that they'd be subjected to quarantine at the very least, and probably a lot of unwelcome medical and psychological study too. Even setting that aside, what kind of life could they expect to have? They would be the center of a media circus, the focus of all kinds of conspiracy theories, and any number of nutter New Age alien religious sects would descend on them like a plague of locusts. Some nations might even decide to kidnap such a contactee in order to ply them for information that might give them some kind of military technological advantage. In any event, the life of a verified alien contactee would be a complete shitstorm that would be governed by forces far beyond the control of the individual at the center of the controversy.

I can't imagine that any benevolent alien being would subject a contactee to these kinds of consequences. In fact, it's not unreasonable to think that a genuine alien contactee might be given counterintelligence cover in order to protect them from these kinds of consequences. And I find it to be an interesting exercise to consider what forms that kind of cover might take, and then compare it with certain sensational accounts that have appeared in the rather colorful history of ufology.

 

[Spaceman spiff]

Speculating: If the others would want to remain totally unseen and invisible, the could do so and we would have no damn clue they were ever here. The fact that they seemingly dont in some occasions makes me think the genuine encounters, whether public or military, are meticulously crafted and controlled scenarios or experiments, while leaving as little concrete evidence as possible. Because as soon as you leave the evidence that crosses the treshold, the gig is up and perhaps unwanted or premature and disasterous consequences follow, for the people or the contactees, like Thomas brought up just now. Its possible they have done this on thousands of planets before ours, seen some of the consequences and in time mastered the techniques, and can predict very accurately now what could happen and how it needs to be done. Like say maybe the Ariel school encounter was one of these crafted public scenarios.

Military encounters would be more safe for their public anonymity, cause they probably would know the militaries cover, obfuscate and classify everything up. Maybe throw some technologically projected paranormal stuff into the mix, to make the intelligence officials that can have classified knowledge about this even more confused. And soon you have set up nice camouflages for your presence, while the scenarios you have weaved over the decades slowly influences the culture without revealing too much or making people jump out of the windows.

So why do this? Slow drip feeding awareness raising acclimatization would fit this picture, or some sort of testing, like showing a group of rats some lights and see how they react, from time to time. So it could be this is either a planet in a process of being awakened to the presence of them, a huge laboratory or a reality show joke playground for some off world magicians who love to play with the clueless natives. Or all of the above. Or maybe we cant even fathom their true motives.

 

[Kchoo]

So if our navy is not prepared for this kind of encounter, but it now knows this technology exists, we can bet the best science officers and engineers will be looking for it, hunting it, setting traps, anything they can think of.... successful or not.

That means billions will be spent investigating this thing. They won't stop until they know what they are dealing with.

But if the Navy found out what it it is, then they definitely wouldn't disclose it to the public.

First, anything this advanced, (if not owned by us) is going to be classed as a potential threat.
Second, anyone caught exposing this kind of information would be completely stopped... with force.
Third, nobody hacks military servers... that would be an act of war, and would be met with a most unhappy and instant consequence.

 

[wwkirk]

I can't imagine that any benevolent alien being would subject a contactee to these kinds of consequences. In fact, it's not unreasonable to think that a genuine alien contactee might be given counterintelligence cover in order to protect them from these kinds of consequences. And I find it to be an interesting exercise to consider what forms that kind of cover might take, and then compare it with certain sensational accounts that have appeared in the rather colorful history of ufology.

Just curious. Do you believe, or maybe just suspect, that one or more of the announced contactees were or are legit? If so, which ones are the most promising, in your opinion.

 

[Kchoo]

I do not believe individual contactees can be credible witnesses to themselves, much less each other. So individual encounters are of little value. The brain just can't deal with it very well.

The best incidences are the ones with multiple witnesses, especially ones recorded by air traffic control between multiple pilots and dispatch.

And those sitings with more than one community when several people report the Same thing at the same time to authorities.

To me this leaves little doubt that something is out there, defying our known technology by leaps and bounds, . It is no longer explained away as some naturally occurring illusion of light fields and reflections...

Finally, people are accepting that it may be something physical, something controlled by an intelligence.

That opens up so many more doors to exponential growth of our own military, science, and to acceptance of Alien Contact.

But, until it starts happening in a way that a majority can understand, it has no value, other than to inspire our creativity and growth in the technical research arena, and that is also now happening via public and private funding as previously mentioned.

The lid is off, and alot of people are now peering into the barrel of discovery.

For better, for worse, disclosure will happen, if not from the military, then from greed and the results of that motive will eventually be offered to the public in small, highly marketable, phases.

 

[pigfarmer]

The lid is off, and alot of people are now peering into the barrel of discovery

Or, to paraphrase the Cylons - this has all happened before and is happening again.
What has come from 'the military' in the past ? What makes anyone think this isn't the new flavor coming out of the same tap?

It's a mistake to connect old UFO reports and contactees with the Nimitz or more recent encounters. It just fuels the bullshit engine that drives ufology. In the past those sowing the confusion were probably enjoying it.

McMillan wrote a nice article but I'm not ready to lurch toward the guy I never heard of before because he said something I liked. I just absorbed it along with what the actual witnesses said on those podcasts.

As @Thomas R. Morrison has pointed out with other things posted here - anybody actually listen to them? One is holding a screaming baby so I admit, it wasn't easy, but it is worth hearing what they have to say and the manner in which they say it.

 

[Kchoo]

It's a mistake to connect old UFO reports and contactees with the Nimitz or more recent encounters. It just fuels the bullshit engine that drives ufology.

It cannot be ignored that whatever was seen in the video cannot be explained by our known technology.

It baffeled the pilots.

 

[pigfarmer]

It cannot be ignored that whatever was seen in the video cannot be explained by our known technology.

It baffeled the pilots.

True enough, at the time everyone who knew about them had their underwear in a knot at some point. Except the most senior officers in that group according to Day and Voorhis. Curious lack of reaction I would think.

PJ Hughes claims to have laid eyes upon a tic-tac and thinks it's terrestrial and said so in that interview. You know what that means? It's his opinion. I have no way to determine if he really was where he said he was at that time or not. He sounds credible, much more so than listening to some pinhead talking about riding on a tic-tac. If he's not being truthful about his encounter hopefully it'll come out in the wash.

If you took the entire Nimitz incident out of the mix, just say it never happened and just put that young man in his Hawkeye out on an isolated stretch of ocean where he encountered this tic-tac or something similar then think about how we'd react. We'd be pointing to advanced sensors, his technical skill and military background etc and including his case on the short list of serious incidents used to build the case of ET visitation. Good God, if he then said the drives were taken after his flight by persons unknown we'd be writhing on the floor in orgasmic frenzy. But in this instance he offers an opinion that goes against the grain, well then he seems to lose a little shine somehow.

I don't doubt Fravor or any of the other pilots either. I do have trouble with him rubbing elbows with Bob Lazar and Jeremy Corbell. If nothing else he's getting his head filled with nonsense.

These are all ingredients in the same pie no matter what you believe personally. Something else that I think those interviews illustrated - that time has passed, memories are imperfect and there is some disagreement between the witnesses. I also hear nothing but respect for chain of command even after retirement. Shades of Rendlesham, in a way.

No idea what they saw but the reactions of the humans afterward are predictable.

 

[Kchoo]

I listened to the first hour Episode 47 of the Black Vault and felt like it was a whole lot of nothing... I decide to stop wasting my time...

 

[Thomas R. Morrison]

Just curious. Do you believe, or maybe just suspect, that one or more of the announced contactees were or are legit? If so, which ones are the most promising, in your opinion.

Only one contactee has ever really caught my interest; the rocket instrumentation technician who worked at White Sands Missile Proving Ground shortly after WWII named Daniel Fry. I wrote at some length recently about the reasons why his story stands out in this thread. All of the other contactee stories that I've encountered were readily dismissed, especially in light of subsequent scientific findings. Curiously, Fry's account not only stands apart from the laughably fanciful takes of the other alleged contactees, but many of the statements in his books have been confirmed by the progress of science decades later. This is an anomaly that I still to this day cannot explain away.

So I've spent some time considering the possibility that Daniel Fry was telling the truth about his encounter. And it occurred to me if his account was in fact real, then it may be possible that the entire "contactee era" of the 1950s may have been an alien PsyOp - a smokescreen to make the idea of contact seem laughable. For example, it seems that Truman Bethurum may have indeed encountered a woman using the name "Aura Rhanes," and their meetings could have been part of a cleverly orchestrated disinformation campaign, for the purpose of making the government and the public dismiss the idea of alien contact. This would surely be the smartest and most effective way to protect anyone who had actually been contacted, from the consequences of that contact.

In any case, I find this to be a stimulating intellectual exercise - and one which puts this subject in its proper perspective: because if we are indeed encountering alien beings of greater intelligence than our own, and presumably an abundance of experience with encountering more primitive civilizations like ours, then we should expect them to conduct covert missions of supreme effectiveness and masterful deception...not to haphazardly land at random locations and foolishly find themselves facing the business end of some terrified farmer's shotgun, as so many people seem to imagine happening in the event of an alien contact.

It's a mistake to connect old UFO reports and contactees with the Nimitz or more recent encounters.

I have to disagree here: the Nimitz incidents did not happen in a historical vacuum, and looking at it that way tends to lead people to the premature and I think ill-founded conclusion that the Tic-Tac AAV was human in origin. The radical performance characteristics reported in that case conform perfectly to hundreds and probably thousands of similar incidents dating back over 70 years. Given that context, it seems obvious that the Nimitz incidents are most likely just one more case in a long history of cases involving technologies far beyond our terrestrial science and technology.

 

[wwkirk]

if his account was in fact real, then it may be possible that the entire "contactee era" of the 1950s may have been an alien PsyOp - a smokescreen to make the idea of contact seem laughable.

From what I can tell, Adamski's first book about his alleged contact was published in 1953. And I believe Truman Bethurum first went public in 1953. Van Tassel's book, I Rode A Flying Saucer, was published the previous year, in 1952. However, Daniel Fry only went public about his alleged experience in 1954. His organization, Understanding, was founded in 1955.

So, is your suspicion that elements in the government anticipated the possibility (or likelihood) of alien contact, and thus wanted to create a climate in which future claims of contact would be doubted and even ridiculed? Or did they actually have prior knowledge of what the aliens might do thanks to their already having been contacted themselves?

Or does "alien PsyOp" refer to actions of the aliens themselves who didn't want the Earth population at large to become aware of their selective contacts with human beings?

Or, finally, are there errors in the contactee timeline?

 

[pigfarmer]

To some in the DoD I think it doesn't really matter where those devices come from, they are happy to let others suspect it might be ours. A Quaker gun. Sun Tzu could put it better I'm sure, but I think this has been part of the military's attitude all along. Like a politician leaving no baby unkissed.

 

[wwkirk]

Only one contactee has ever really caught my interest; the rocket instrumentation technician who worked at White Sands Missile Proving Ground shortly after WWII named Daniel Fry. I wrote at some length recently about the reasons why his story stands out in this thread. All of the other contactee stories that I've encountered were readily dismissed, especially in light of subsequent scientific findings. Curiously, Fry's account not only stands apart from the laughably fanciful takes of the other alleged contactees, but many of the statements in his books have been confirmed by the progress of science decades later. This is an anomaly that I still to this day cannot explain away.

So I've spent some time considering the possibility that Daniel Fry was telling the truth about his encounter. And it occurred to me if his account was in fact real, then it may be possible that the entire "contactee era" of the 1950s may have been an alien PsyOp - a smokescreen to make the idea of contact seem laughable. For example, it seems that Truman Bethurum may have indeed encountered a woman using the name "Aura Rhanes," and their meetings could have been part of a cleverly orchestrated disinformation campaign, for the purpose of making the government and the public dismiss the idea of alien contact. This would surely be the smartest and most effective way to protect anyone who had actually been contacted, from the consequences of that contact.

In any case, I find this to be a stimulating intellectual exercise - and one which puts this subject in its proper perspective: because if we are indeed encountering alien beings of greater intelligence than our own, and presumably an abundance of experience with encountering more primitive civilizations like ours, then we should expect them to conduct covert missions of supreme effectiveness and masterful deception...not to haphazardly land at random locations and foolishly find themselves facing the business end of some terrified farmer's shotgun, as so many people seem to imagine happening in the event of an alien contact.


I have to disagree here: the Nimitz incidents did not happen in a historical vacuum, and looking at it that way tends to lead people to the premature and I think ill-founded conclusion that the Tic-Tac AAV was human in origin. The radical performance characteristics reported in that case conform perfectly to hundreds and probably thousands of similar incidents dating back over 70 years. Given that context, it seems obvious that the Nimitz incidents are most likely just one more case in a long history of cases involving technologies far beyond our terrestrial science and technology.

Aaron Gulyas provides a nice summary of Daniel Fry's career in his latest podcast.
Try a Little Understanding

And don't forget Fry's legacy website: Daniel Fry Dot Com

 

[michael59]

All of this is incredibly frustrating. Especially when I know what I have seen and how people perceive me to be when I relay what I have been through.

Makes me sick to my stomach when I try to reason out why our leaders are handling things the way they do. To me it sounds like a dick measuring contest. And we don't even know if any ET have our same anatomy.

I believe these pilots. Especially if you go back and see what they have been put through because they stepped forward.

 

[pigfarmer]

see what they have been put through because they stepped forward

?

 

[Kchoo]

All of this is incredibly frustrating. Especially when I know what I have seen and how people perceive me to be when I relay what I have been through.

Makes me sick to my stomach when I try to reason out why our leaders are handling things the way they do. To me it sounds like a dick measuring contest. And we don't even know if any ET have our same anatomy.

I believe these pilots. Especially if you go back and see what they have been put through because they stepped forward.

Most people simply can't get their head around it.
You probably can't totally trust your own experiences, right?
So we can't expect others to grasp it.
And the pilots are doing okay, considering all they are required to do... they are keeping their composure, and moving forward.