Question about EMP

[nivek]

it is not that bad,
where I live would be just fine (why I moved here)
lots of places would be quite livable,
most of the southern hemisphere would have no issues at all
but much of the USA would be a hell zone

There's a tv show called The 100 which played this scenario of long term power loss, but some of the nuclear plants began exploding, creating huge radioactive clouds that sweep the earth...Those that survived were in orbit or in fallout shelters but the ones in shelters were running out of food...

...

 

[CasualBystander]

EMP is a multi-minute EM wave that starts at 30,000 V/m with a 5 nanosecond rise time.

Take a one mile power line. Put 30,000 V/M on it.

30,000 * 1600 meters = 48,000,000 Volts.

Your 200 KV power line has 240 times its intended voltage, it heats up and drops to the ground.

Feedback into various grid connections fries them if the circuit protectors don't kick in fast enough.

Bad things happen to connected generators.

Think of a lightning strike at all points in the power system simultaneously.

A typical lightning bolt is 3 million V/m and has an effective voltage of around 100 megavolts - but is a point strike.

This is everywhere.

 

[Thomas R. Morrison]

EMP is a multi-minute EM wave that starts at 30,000 V/m with a 5 nanosecond rise time.

Take a one mile power line. Put 30,000 V/M on it.

30,000 * 1600 meters = 48,000,000 Volts.

Your 200 KV power line has 240 times its intended voltage, it heats up and drops to the ground.

Feedback into various grid connections fries them if the circuit protectors don't kick in fast enough.

Bad things happen to connected generators.

Think of a lightning strike at all points in the power system simultaneously.

A typical lightning bolt is 3 million V/m and has an effective voltage of around 100 megavolts - but is a point strike.

This is everywhere.

That's in line with what I've heard David Adair describe in the last year or so - he was talking about burning power lines falling down and starting fires all over the place, and general apocalyptic mayhem. He's pressing Washington to get behind a bill in Congress to harden our electrical grid called the Shield Act - he's the only one I know about who's actually fighting to get this done. Here he is talking about the effects of an event like this - he's extremely alarmed about it. His estimate of a major EMP attack is 93% of Americans dead within the first year:

There's a tv show called The 100 which played this scenario of long term power loss, but some of the nuclear plants began exploding, creating huge radioactive clouds that sweep the earth...Those that survived were in orbit or in fallout shelters but the ones in shelters were running out of food...
...

Yeah I totally forgot about the nuclear plants - that's a huge factor...probably the most important factor to consider.

Those plants have a bad enough track record when our civilization is in peak condition; I assume that we'll have major problems with them following a scenario like this. I'd love to believe in the success of the manual backups, but after seeing how people here in New Orleans abandoned vital infrastructure when Hurricane Katrina hit, I can only assume that a lot of people will do the wrong thing and let many of these plants melt down.

 

[CasualBystander]

EMP is a multi-minute EM wave that starts at 30,000 V/m with a 5 nanosecond rise time.

Take a one mile power line. Put 30,000 V/M on it.

30,000 * 1600 meters = 48,000,000 Volts.

Your 200 KV power line has 240 times its intended voltage, it heats up and drops to the ground.

Feedback into various grid connections fries them if the circuit protectors don't kick in fast enough.

Bad things happen to connected generators.

Think of a lightning strike at all points in the power system simultaneously.

A typical lightning bolt is 3 million V/m and has an effective voltage of around 100 megavolts - but is a point strike.

This is everywhere.

Probably should add that lightning is 30,000 Amps peak for about 30 milliseconds.

It delivers about 1000 Coulombs of charge.

An EMP has no such limitation and delivers a current of V/R.

They seem to like to run 2/0 wire (200 amps) and adjust the voltage accordingly for the aerial delivery systems.

Lets assume 2/0 wire. Resistance is 0.000256 Ohms.

ooooohhh. Lots of zeros in answer.

My guess is even if you isolate the wire the continuous lightning coming from the ends is plenty to overheat it.

 

[CasualBystander]

That's in line with what I've heard David Adair describe in the last year or so - he was talking about burning power lines falling down and starting fires all over the place, and general apocalyptic mayhem. He's pressing Washington to get behind a bill in Congress to harden our electrical grid called the Shield Act - he's the only one I know about who's actually fighting to get this done. Here he is talking about the effects of an event like this - he's extremely alarmed about it. His estimate of a major EMP attack is 93% of Americans dead within the first year:

Yup, the breakdown voltage of air is only 20KV/m so there will be lightning coming off the end of the wire until it hits the ground.

Kind of curious how badly underground cables will perform.

You can protect the main delivery systems if you harden them...

Don't see the whole grid getting hardened. In rural areas they are lucky they have wires going everywhere.

If there isn't a native capability to produce transformers and other electrical gear- we are going to be hurting.

Whoever of China, Russia, and the US isn't hit by EMP is going to be the winner.

Hope we haven't all converted to electric cars because I suspect there will be a lot of burning Teslas.

 

[Thomas R. Morrison]

Yup, the breakdown voltage of air is only 20KV/m so there will be lightning coming off the end of the wire until it hits the ground.

Kind of curious how badly underground cables will perform.

You can protect the main delivery systems if you harden them...

Don't see the whole grid getting hardened. In rural areas they are lucky they have wires going everywhere.

If there isn't a native capability to produce transformers and other electrical gear- we are going to be hurting.

Whoever of China, Russia, and the US isn't hit by EMP is going to be the winner.

Hope we haven't all converted to electric cars because I suspect there will be a lot of burning Teslas.

My understanding of the Tesla battery system is that a sudden powerful charge in the system will make the cells blow up and probably catch fire. It wouldn't be hard to shield everything though, they should do that.

I haven't checked the calculations for an EMP, but I'm far less worried about that, than a Carrington-class CME. When you read about the global effects of that event, it's effing terrifying to think what would happen today. And the next one is a certainty - it's only a matter of time before the Sun belches hard in our direction. It's crazy that we didn't take that into account when we built this massive and totally electrically dependent global civilization. Our own lack of foresight has endangered everything we've worked towards for hundreds if not thousands of years.

The Shield Act would simultaneously save our bacon from the worst natural catastrophe in human history, and jump start the labor market and national economy in a dramatic and badly needed manner - I'm 100% for it. We should rebuild our national industry while we're at it, so we're not exporting billions of dollars in manufacturing to communist China - we need that money in circulation here, because nearly all of our cash is frozen in the stock and commodities markets now.

 

[spacecase0]

the totally nuts thing about the power grid being set up so fragile is that right after they started building the power grid a CME wiped it out. they had to build it again (can't seem to find the year on that one on the web, got tired of looking, but it is out there)
so they knew the sun could wipe it out as they built and expanded it.
guess that everyone forgot about that when they got around to trusting lives to the grid.

 

[CasualBystander]

My understanding of the Tesla battery system is that a sudden powerful charge in the system will make the cells blow up and probably catch fire. It wouldn't be hard to shield everything though, they should do that.

I haven't checked the calculations for an EMP, but I'm far less worried about that, than a Carrington-class CME. When you read about the global effects of that event, it's effing terrifying to think what would happen today. And the next one is a certainty - it's only a matter of time before the Sun belches hard in our direction. It's crazy that we didn't take that into account when we built this massive and totally electrically dependent global civilization. Our own lack of foresight has endangered everything we've worked towards for hundreds if not thousands of years.

The Shield Act would simultaneously save our bacon from the worst natural catastrophe in human history, and jump start the labor market and national economy in a dramatic and badly needed manner - I'm 100% for it. We should rebuild our national industry while we're at it, so we're not exporting billions of dollars in manufacturing to communist China - we need that money in circulation here, because nearly all of our cash is frozen in the stock and commodities markets now.

Lets back up a bit.

A Carrington event would be different.

Remember - the unprotected telegraph lines powered themselves, shocked the operators etc. etc. so it is bad and would go on for a day or more.

Yup it would be bad.

An megaton+ emp strike would last intensely for under a second but continue for a minute or more because it is the combination of the E1, E2, and E3 effects. The compton effect (E1) is the fast pulse.

The E3 effect (distortion of the earth's magnetic field) lasts the longest.

An EMP in telegraph times would have killed the telegraph operators with "lightning bolts".

 

[spacecase0]

An EMP in telegraph times would have caused lightening bolts to kill the telegraph operators.

makes you wonder what would an EMP do to someone holding a computer mouse or using a keyboard ?
if you are not grounded, likely not much. but I am not going through the math to figure it out.

 

[CasualBystander]

makes you wonder what would an EMP do to someone holding a computer mouse or using a keyboard ?
if you are not grounded, likely not much. but I am not going through the math to figure it out.

Orientation is everything.

A cable perpendicular to the blast wave will get some minor induction. In our 1 mile line example it would induce a few hundred kilovolts (the further the distance the less curvature to the wave, the lower the power and the less the induction).

In line is a different story. A millisecond wide E1 pulse (in a millisecond light travels about 180 miles in the atmosphere) would affect power lines almost uniformly on their length - IE lightning bolts.

Lets take your 2 meter keyboard cord. We'll assume that about 1 meter is inline. Neither of the 5 volt devices on either end of your keyboard cord are designed for 30,000 volts. Doubt it would kill you - the breakdown voltage of air is your friend - but don't believe your computer will work as well afterward.

Think of EMP as a 4 gigawatt radio station.

I was at an event with a VHS video camera and the 50 KW radio station nearby overloaded the electronics on the camera.

 

[CasualBystander]

Think of EMP as a 4 gigawatt radio station.

Oh, forgot it was a 1 millisecond pulse ...

Think of EMP as a 4 terawatt radio station.

 

[CasualBystander]

Oh, forgot it was a 1 millisecond pulse ...

Think of EMP as a 4 terawatt radio station.

Arecibo Interstellar Message - Frontiers in Space - Fossil Hunters

Probably should add that a nuclear blast in the ionosphere has more effective radiative power than a notable Arecibo detection.

We are communicating with Aliens.

Not sure what they will think about our message.

 

[3FEL9]

The Early-Time (E1) High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP) and
Its Impact on the U.S. Power Grid

Good reading. Good luck

 

[Jr35rain]

The Early-Time (E1) High-Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP) and
Its Impact on the U.S. Power Grid

Good reading. Good luck

A deep bloody rabbit hole right there!

 

[Gambeir]

I've asked this before on a survivalist forum, and never got an answer that made sense.

Why is it that there's an assumption that's validated by the media that an EMP attack would wipe out civilization for years to come?

Yes, it would suck. Yes, for a short period of time, there would be a fairly high death toll. Yes, it would be really crappy. Yes, it would be hard to deal with for at least say, six months. And no, I don't have any faith in the government getting the lights back on in a decent amount of time, especially after seeing what's happened/is happening in Puerto Rico.

However.

The corporations will want the power back on. They're not making any money if people aren't safe/aren't fed/housed/clothed. Knowing as I do that our society has turned into one giant consumerist mudball, why wouldn't your local electric company be busting its butt to get things fixed?

Please somebody explain to me why the power would still be off five years down the line, because almost all of the media surrounding EMPs just doesn't make sense to me in that manner. At all.

Thank you!

SilentRunning

The first problem is the assumption of what is valued. Control and rule are what is valued. Not people and not money. Corporations are merely extensions of who actually rules. Corporate dictators are mere proxies and not the true rulers of corporations. They only do what they are directed to do: Money is of no concern. The rulers have endless wealth already.

There is a point where control and rule cross a threshold in the minds of these rulers regarding the size of populations. Probably the only reason there hasn't been a mass culling is because there is a need for these numbers right now. Later that may change. I expect it to change. Space warriors is your first warning that a future mass culling will take place.

The situation in Puerto Rico has to do with the eugenics and the beliefs of these rulers. Inferior races are to be eliminated. It's not just incompetence, it's willful and intentional, and to fully understand this you have to devote serious time in understanding the origins of this philosophy. I can't recall which video precisely but there are five one hour video's on Youtube entitled "The Ultimate History Lesson: A weekend with John Taylor Gatto."

If you have kids and you love them then you are advised to watch these videos. I know people who have told me that they took their kids out of schools because of what these video's have taught them. * You may want to skip the intro or not, it runs about 17 minutes in this first video. I strongly advise watching these no matter who you are. I've watched the entire series twice now, and John Taylor Gatto is not my discovery either, someone else turned me on to him just like I'm now trying to turn you all on to what he has to offer you. This is not something to rush through. It's something to be savored with coffee a cig or whatever else you enjoy. Cut out the time because I assure you this will change what you think you know. Don't worry about how this begins with extreme intellectualism. Don't worry that you don't know this or that, just absorb what you will and it is enough.

 

[nivek]

the totally nuts thing about the power grid being set up so fragile is that right after they started building the power grid a CME wiped it out. they had to build it again (can't seem to find the year on that one on the web, got tired of looking, but it is out there)
so they knew the sun could wipe it out as they built and expanded it.
guess that everyone forgot about that when they got around to trusting lives to the grid.

I don't think a CME would effect DC power systems?...The power grid as it stands today needs to have proper shielding around the transformers and a quick remote way of disengaging them from the system when necessary to protect them...

...

 

[Thomas R. Morrison]

I don't think a CME would effect DC power systems?...The power grid as it stands today needs to have proper shielding around the transformers and a quick remote way of disengaging them from the system when necessary to protect them...

...

Yeah we have the know-how to protect our power systems, we just haven't implemented it, which can and will be disastrous if we don't do it before the next major CME strike.

The problem is induction, so it doesn't matter whether it's an AC or DC system - any unshielded conductive line will act as an antenna and undergo an intense power surge when a powerful magnetic field passes through it. The early telegraph systems were DC and they got messed with very badly.

 

[spacecase0]

I don't think a CME would effect DC power systems?...The power grid as it stands today needs to have proper shielding around the transformers and a quick remote way of disengaging them from the system when necessary to protect them...

...

if you do a small DC solar setup, a CME would not touch it at all
if you did a large scale nation wide DC grid, if you set up the polarity correct, the CME would just add to the power on the grid, in the middle of a bit CME most of the power would just be for free.
but if you set the AC system up correct it would not be at risk either.

 

[nivek]

New grid threat: Russia deploys super-electromagnetic pulse weapon capable of traveling at Mach 20 that could put the U.S. in the dark with little notice – And China ready too!

Russia deploys super-electromagnetic pulse weapon to win WWIII. China is ready too.
.
With the United States waking up to the threat posed to the electric grid and electronics from cyberwarfare, Russia is mastering systems that can already overcome the latest protections to keep the lights on, according to one of the nation’s leading experts.

The latest intelligence indicates that Russia has specialized a “super-electromagnetic pulse” weapon and warhead capable of traveling at Mach 20 that could put the U.S. in the dark with little notice.

Peter Vincent Pry, executive director of the EMP Task Force on National and Homeland Security, also said China has leapfrogged U.S. developments in electromagnetic pulse warfare (see report at the end of the article).

What’s more, administration critics claim that President Biden’s decision to lift former President Trump’s ban on China involvement in the U.S. grid gives the communist foe a backdoor opening to attacking the nation’s electric supply.

“Washington’s impotence and irresolution will invite future, increasingly aggressive cyberattacks,” said Pry, who has worked with Congress, past administrations, the electric industry, and the Pentagon to prepare for an attack.

He recently warned that the political turmoil in Washington is a “golden opportunity” for an EMP strike.

During the Trump administration, he and others had success getting the White House and the Pentagon to focus on the issue and begin protecting key facilities. But the energy industry has been slow to act.

Proponents of preparing for an EMP attack believe that Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran see the U.S. as an easy target and one that could quickly be brought to its knees because so much of the economy relies on electricity, communications, and the internet, all of which would cease in an attack.



In his new report on Russia, Pry provided details in advancements in EMP warfare, or “cybergeddon,” Moscow has pushed, including a new weapon and high-speed delivery.

Unlike conventional warfare, he said that EMP weapons are exploded high enough up in the atmosphere to wipe out the electric grids and computers in huge sections of the country. The outages could last over a year.

He said enemy nations with the weapons “could black out North America and NATO Europe and win World War III at the speed of light.”

His report came on the 26th anniversary of Russia’s nuclear war scare in which the Kremlin mistakenly believed a Norwegian meteorological rocket was an incoming U.S. EMP attack, the closest the superpowers ever came to nuclear war.

Russia EMP Threat

 

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

I believe the military is mostly protected from most EMP attacks with Faraday cages and similar.
One idea is a rapid EMP missile launch detection and detonate them before they leave the country launched from.
Preferably before they leave the ground.