Self awareness and soul

Discussion in 'Knowledge of the Spirit' started by ChrisIB, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    MacDougall at least had a crack at proving its existence

    In 1901, one of the most famous metaphysical experiments of the 20th century was performed by a Massachusetts physician. His name was Duncan MacDougall, and he believed that, if the soul were real, it should have measurable weight. He therefore attempted to compare the weights of patients before and after death. After testing six patients dying of tuberculosis, he concluded that dying results in the small but measurable loss of ¾ of an ounce – the weight of the soul.

    To MacDougall’s way of thinking, the soul should be found only in human beings and not in other animals. He therefore performed similar measurements in dogs and found no loss in weight as the animals expired. This he regarded as confirmation of his belief that souls are found only in living human beings, and that when a human being dies, the soul leaves the body.

    MacDougall’s investigations were flawed at many levels.

    When his results were first published, critics argued that the weight loss could be explained by physiologic factors, such as evaporation. Moreover, his report failed to mention several patients in whom he found no weight loss. Finally, subsequent attempts to reproduce his results failed to find any weight loss. Indeed, MacDougall’s vision may have been clouded by confirmation bias, the tendency for investigators to see what they expect.
     
  2. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    Q: How do you prove souls are not real

    A: You cannot. It is a negative proposition and you cannot logically prove a negative.

    Thus the “burden of proof” is to those that support the positive claim, i.e. proving that there IS a “Soul”.

    It is no different that claiming that there are shape-shifting aliens or reptiles that live between us, Unicorns, or the claim that I have an invisible dragon that only appears to me living in my garage…the one that makes the claim of existence of any of these, has to provide proof/evidence for his/her claim.

    The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof needs to be.

    E.g. if I said I had a dog living in my garage = not extraordinary = noone really cares to dispute it.

    If I said I had a tamed wolf living in my garage = pretty unusual, yet not impossible. People would be asking questions and be naturally curious to see it.

    If I said I had a Dragon, or Bigfoot living in my garage = extraordinary claim with no recorded president and typical “Lying Tom” story… = I better give some proof or I open myself to dismissal or ridicule for being a liar / madman.

    This is the standard we should all apply to extraordinary claims. Doesn’t matter if “it makes sense somewhere inside” or “if it feels good” or “if it is comforting”.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  3. CerealK

    CerealK Adept

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    Time for sum soul train ya'll

     
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  4. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    All very well said, there is no denying the logic and reasoning, in some of my own work I use this very method, in other observations I see the results as side effects, something expected and of no consequence to prove...I personally view the soul as something completely different than what is commonly agreed upon with the masses too and it's not a necessary component to life in this universe as many think either...

    ...
     
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  5. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    I think self awareness and the soul can be better explained thus:

    The mind is made of layers, at its basic level it takes sensory input like i feel thirsty. or i feel hungry and passes these basic sensation on the the next layer. The overmind if you will. It takes sensory input as feelings and creates action strategys to deal with them.
    The experience set (memorys) are queried and the result is water will quench thirst. "I" need water
    "I" know where water is
    "I" need to walk to the waterhole to get water.

    The overmind is an evolutionary mechanism that turns simple biosensory data into actions. Most animals possess one to some degree or another.

    The human version is the most advanced version of cognitive functioning here.

    Its the layer of mind that recognises "I", me, self.

    Add language (foxp2 gene) to that and its complexity increases, its aware its aware. The ego , the ID, the conscious of myself , self.

    And its always had a problem processing death, its an anathema to the ego, the ID.

    The self is aware of itself, and thats served it well as a survival tool. Its what keeps it alive and functioning.

    Death is the opposite, the enemy. Contemplating it creates a feedback loop that the ego struggles with.

    The concept of death triggers the fight or flight reflex in the self.

    But it sees it everyday, such is the biological reality. Death happens

    So the Self creates constructs to reconcile what at its simplest, most honestly is the irreconcilable.

    So we create heavens, and afterlives, and souls as mechanisms for the survival of the self. Because the self cannot tolerate negation. Nor should it. The self is a survival mechanism it must be preserved. Self preservation the ultimate instinct. It works well in the jungle, is necessary.

    The lessor animals dont need the concept, I think it has to do with the language layer of mind. It adds a level of complexity to the sense of self they dont have. We are aware we are aware, language lets us articulate that in our internal dialog. To such a complex ego, ID, Self. Death becomes a real issue.
     
  6. spacecase0

    spacecase0 earth human

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    909
    like many,
    you might be surprised what happens when you die.
    and you can experience this before that point if you want to.
    it is amazing what you can find when you start hacking reality.
     
  7. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    Its a very old discussion, and i doubt no one will ever agree to a consensus.

    Your view is contradicted by Soul Drifters view.

    You cannot both be right. Of course if the soul doesn't exist that conflict is resolved, you are both wrong.
    (i dont state that as an absolute, rather as a potential factor in an equation)

    Indeed absolutes are not useful in this debate, no one should use them since there is no proof to support absolute claims.

    The honest answer and one i am much more comfortable with is Soul drifter believes in his internal dialog that everything has a soul, that works for him. But Its not proof everyone/thing has one.
    You think some humans do, but dogs dont, thats your internal reality. Not an universal absolute.
    And i see no evidence they exist, thats my internal reality, its not a universal absolute.

    We should each be comfortable with our internal reconciliation of the question and not impose that value as an absolute on anyone else, unless we have compelling evidence/proof to make our individual case as a universal absolute.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  8. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    like many,
    you might be surprised to learn there is a magic pink unicorn which i know is real but you cant see standing next to you right now
    and you can experience this yourself if you want to.
    it is amazing how pink she really is when you start hacking reality

    Do you see how this doesnt work ?
     
  9. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    3,757
    I Study A little on the subject of Human Consciousness. There is a theory, Largely held in Hypothesis. about a great shared field of human consciousness. called the Akashic field, Akashic records - Wikipedia It's believed that this shared field is where all human consciousness resides in the universe that in fact there is only one consciousness and it is shared among all life. To some This proves unexplained yet proven phenomena like Remote viewing, There is another theory that states the Mind and the body are separate entities This theory is called Mind-body dualism. Mind–body dualism - Wikipedia It states That the Human consciousness and the physical body are separate and exist in different dimensions. The theory goes a little like this. That because The actual cognitive force that makes us unique is separate from us. Yet connected to us in a quantum field kind of way. That our minds, Experience this physical reality differently than our bodies do, Specifically the passage of time. That in fact, this Physical mental duality may even explain other paranormal phenomena like precognition. Because Our minds perceive time differently than our bodies do. We don't know, or at least we can't prove beyond doubt that these outside events do determine our existence. But, It's 2018. We have machines that can interface with the human brain and even record our dreams.



    Yet we are no closer to understanding Human consciousness. Many of the leading minds around the globe, Are beginning to entertain the notion that a lot of our cognitive ability is processes on some quantum plane of existence. That we as of yet do not understand.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
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  10. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    For each individual's life there is another which will contradict it, it is no different in regard to the soul, as above so below...We are all here for different reasons and some contradict others, but they can all be right because they all exist in this world, they can't be all wrong or no one would be here...Each path is different and each path has a different storybook to go with it...The story is being written with every step you take along that path...The path is not a beaten one, it's being created with every step you take, none can follow, others can only create their own path...This is how the masses get stuck, after people get stuck for a while they get irritable and grumpy, they start fighting amongst one another, after while we got world wars to deal with, the masses keep trying to make everyone follow one path, life here doesn't work that way...

    ...
     
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  11. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    If and i say IF time travel is possible
    (i dont want to send this off topic on the issue of TT, i use it to make another point entirely)

    Then every point in the past can be revisited, which means that everything we say or do is written indelibly on the fabric of the universe. Ive long thought this might be whats referred to by akoshic records.

    Then there is quantum teleporting
    Quantum teleportation - Wikipedia

    Quantum teleportation is limited to the transfer of information rather than matter itself. Quantum teleportation is not a form of transportation, but of communication: it provides a way of transporting a qubit from one location to another without having to move a physical particle along with it.

    Given the vast majority of the atoms in your body are quite old. The hydrogen is almost all about 13.7 billion years old

    Its possible that we may someday be able to explain these phenomena as mechanisms, not requiring the "supernatural" as an answer.
     
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  12. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    Thats not true in an equation.

    2 +2 = 7
    2 + 2 = 12

    They cant both be right, are in fact both wrong

    Our dependence on being here is unrelated to this.
     
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  13. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    What dependence are you referring to?...

    ...
     
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  14. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    The equation isn't that simple, you've left out 80%, they're still outside smoking perhaps lol...If you have 50 people over and only count 7 heads, the rest are still somewhere, even though you don't see them...We cannot disregard their existence because they aren't seen...

    ...
     
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  15. spacecase0

    spacecase0 earth human

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    time can be messed with
    time | Forum
    go try it.
    I have taught people this that now make a living on it.
    seems as if most people don't even try to mess with the past (or future)
     
  16. Black Angus

    Black Angus Honorable

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    You made the claim they cant all be wrong or no one would be here........

    Our "being here" isnt dependent of being correct or incorrect in any given premise.

    If via mass marketing i could convince half the planet the moon is made of cheese, and the other half the moon was made of marzipan.

    They would all be wrong, and they would still be here
     
  17. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    I know a lot of people have heard science say Time travel is impossible. But this is a temporary limitation. They didn't mean it would always be an impossibility. In fact. mathematically we already know how. The problem is finding the exotic materials that are capable of bending space-time, apparently, Time travel is mathematically possible | WIRED UK Which may always be something that we may never overcome, However, Many things were once impossible. That became possible later :)


    Just keep in mind, From a physical approach. Time is an illusion each moment is separated only by a measure of spacetime.
     
  18. ChrisIB

    ChrisIB Honorable

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    I think what we are hinges on the only clue we have: what is the evolutionary endpoint of life?
    My proposition is soul energy beings that utilize material bodies via an interface (I believe they crave touch and sensation).
    As that would be the standard type through the galaxy then by panspermia the Earth was likely seeded by micro organisms from such, and that is what we are, in a reevolved way. Creatures with an interface but no soul.
     
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  19. SOUL-DRIFTER

    SOUL-DRIFTER Life Long Researcher

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    I a skeptic by nature, and I have to experience things(most things) to believe in them and then there is a certain criteria they must pass. My experiences have proven to me that we are certainly much more than our flesh and blood bodies.
    All I can say to you is, if you desire to experience such....seek it and you will find and your attitude will be forever changed as well.
     
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