Statue Removals - a running list

Discussion in 'Present & Current Events' started by nivek, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I'm familiar with Antietam. You and I are on the same page. Putting up the statues in the first place was a sign of the times and so is removing them. I guess if it were a statue of me somebody wanted to remove I'd feel differently :)

    I am more interested in the real history, and sadly most people aren't. This includes the Lost Cause types and the deification. Similar mindset to contemporary Nazis who have zero understanding of what that was all about.

    Sort of a funny story. About ten years ago I was invited to a pig roast/bike rally at a nearby gun club. Not unusual for a club to rent out it's facilities for things like that. Nice day, cruised down there and saw absolutely nothing unusual. At first. The usual nitwits in their biker superhero outfits, lots of nice pig iron, food, booths selling handmade stuff, even kids and games and ice an cream stand. One thing though - I belatedly realized that there were Shutzstaffel Lightning Bolt runes all over the bikes and you betcha, swastikas. Could have bought myself some nifty bandannas, flags, stickers etc. Hooo boy - THAT caught me by surprise. Everyone was quite nice and I stayed just long enough to be polite and then leave to go do something I suddenly remembered. If we were to beam the lot of them back to the real Nazi Germany a la Twilight Zone I highly doubt they'd be too happy about it or that they would be embraced as kindred souls. Similarly if we did the same to the Lost Cause bunch I suspect their demi-gods would, at a minimum, look at them like they were f****ng nuts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  2. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Okay, I've read up on the battle of Antietam, Wow, What an interesting read. Alright, What was the statement you were going to ask me about bro?
     
  3. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Antietam or Sharpsburg, depending on your p.o.v. The Union tended to name battles after nearby bodies of water - Bull Run, Antietam are creeks. 'Run' is another term for creek, stream, what have you. The Confederates preferred places, hence First and Second Manassas, VA and Sharpsburg, MD. Just mentioning it if you decide to look into anything else related. Can be confusing.
     
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  4. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    My thing is, Because of where I live, Monroe County Kentucky, The Civil war line went right across my home town, The literal north-south line went right across Tompkinsville Kentucky, At the time I went to grade school, All the history teachers would have a field day teaching us about the battles that happened locally, While we did learn about the Civil war as a whole, There was much emphasis placed upon our home town, you can see in the first sentence, It mentions the town I live in now, Fountain Run, Civil War in Monroe Co

    So sadly, IN school, So much emphasis was placed on local battles, So much so, That these other battles were given much less relevance in school.

    *Note, It must be said, Even though the line went right through our town, The majority of Tompkinsville does identify as (southern) Even though it's kind of either or.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  5. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    As a matter of fact, There are several roadside monuments on the way to T-ville from fountain run where battles took place, I thought about posting them months ago, I will take a few pics of the monuments and their inscriptions the next time I head to town to see mom and dad.
     
  6. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

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    If you heard the person say....."all Burnside had to do was cross the creek and not attack the bridge"......what would you think?
     
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  7. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

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    Yes it can be confusing.......but it was really only the three battles you mentioned. They stopped doing that after Fredericksburg.
     
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  8. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Well after reading about the battle, They used the Creek strategically, But if he crossed the creek and didn't attack, that would have taken the strategy element away as both sides were uninformed at the time about their numbers, But, If he had crossed and not attacked I suppose he would have been met with a surrender... It would have probably saved a lot of lives.


    I mean if you look at the battle map on wiki,, Burnside had the manpower and was placed strategically at locations to have them surrounded.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  9. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Well, call me a thread hijacker. I think there was a better place to ford it nearby that was ignored. If I remember right McClellan had quite a number of troops sitting on their arses at the time not doing a whole lot. The Army of Northern Virginia was just one of the Confederate armies and it's surrender wouldn't have ended the war. There was a whole big mess out West that tends to get overlooked. If the war had actually ended earlier in some other fashion it may have just set the stage for the next Civil War - much like World War 1. Like pulling the head off a weed if you don't dig it out by the roots it'll be back soon enough.
     
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  10. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

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    My confederate ancestor I can confirm was from Kentucky......as one of the "border" states it can get touchy as to what they would teach. I wish I could find it again......but I saw some teaching protocols United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC) from the 1950s or so that said people like davis and lee could not be vilified and slavery could not be mentioned. Instead the UDC used the lost cause doctrine.

    In New England they usually spent so much time on the Revolution they had to blow thru the civil war. My high school history teacher also had a thing for the Monroe Doctrine. I was far more interested in WW2 at the time.....and alt more history has happened since then.....lol. Even in college the history courses I took went by the actual war very fast.....including the civil war history course I took.
     
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  11. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    I don't know how true it is, This is just rumor, As I understand it, They were all partying and Drunk unable to battle, but that's just an old tale. I don't know how true it is.
     
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  12. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

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    That's where people have to study in detail.....because Burnside sent two divisions to cross the creek and out flank the confederates.

    The creek itself was waist deep and a regiment....(11th Connecticut) tried to fight across the creek and was shot to pieces. If one looks at their monument you'll see this happening. However even with he did have to take the bridge to move the rest of his corps and his artillery across the creek. I had at least several ancestors with Burnside.

    By the time the final attack took the bridge the confederates were out of ammo and knew they were flanked.......though they did an admirable job of holding off the earlier attacks out numbered 2 or 3 to 1 from an excellent defensive position.

    The biggest problem with history is people thinking their high school taught them everything and they never go beyond that......or they read a book about the war and think they are an expert. Even with wiki its simply an overview......one would have to read all the resources in the wiki article to get more detail.

    With me its about historical accuracy......not political that I'm after. Its the uninformed/ignorant that do not care about details. I had numerous ancestors who fought in the civil war.....mostly northern.....and some died or were kia.

    I'm not trying to change your views.......but for me I think we can honor the bravery and sacrifice of both sides by using historical accuracy. Personally I don't mind the monuments of a civil war soldier on the town greens of southern towns....the one in Troy Alabama was quite nice. But the deified monuments put up by the UDC during the Jim Crow Era should be looked closely and then removed if need be. One thing I can add is that there are numerous civil war monuments in Northern cemeteries......I don't see a problem with them being there especially among the dead.

    Like was said in a movie....."we all died a little in that damned war"......and to me they should all be honored. I just think it should be done in a respectful manner.

    Like I said before this isn't a new thing as people have been upset about the State of Rhode Island and the $20 bill for years.
     
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  13. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    For me, it's not about old grudges to the Civil past, I believe the south should have lost, But, As I study history, wasn't the slavery issue more or less a Republican-Democrat thing rather than a north-south thing?

    I don't know how accurate this view is, But it's my understanding that Democrats wanted to keep the idea of slavery around while the Republican view was slavery needed to be abolished?

    All that being said, What a republican and democrat is today, isn't what it was back then. It's hard to say what a republican and democrat is clearly in today's context, as politics have become confusing, People laugh at me for not understanding politics, But, I'm actually not shabby mentally, I see politics as a smoke and mirror show designed to confuse people into "aligning with parties".. I would go as far as to assert, That no one truly fully understands politics because it's based on deceit and lies these days.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  14. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

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    At the time the republican party was new......and Lincoln was the first one elected. It was more widely embraced in the north where the south remained strongly democrat. In a way you are right about the sections and their goals.....but its not really a republican/democrat thing but a geographic one or an industrial/agrarian way of thinking.

    I'm not to into politics......but the people today who are using the republican/democrat thing today are just as confused as they are about the civil war. Its not about a grudge for me either.....I just want historical accuracy thru which we can honor the soldiers of both sides. I find both sides to be a bit confused or going about it the wrong way.

    If you haven't heard about the Orphan Brigade before you might enjoy looking into it......it has a lot of Kentucky history involved......:Thumbsup:
     
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  15. Toroid

    Toroid Founding Member

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  16. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

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