UFOs: skeptics, disclosure, and contact

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
ts likely some sort of unexplained phenomenon that could be elemental in nature, paranormal or supernatural perhaps

Wouldn't it just suck if it turned out Greer was actually invoking exactly that somehow with his expensive light shows ? Almost an X-files plot line - a shyster with a real paranormal skill.

I read the wikis on Brown Mountain and I just don't think at this stage you're going to misidentify vehicle lights or any of that. You can speculate on what it is but be far more certain about what it isn't. If you can duplicate that experience, now that's the Golden Wonka ticket.
 

nivek

As Above So Below
Wouldn't it just suck if it turned out Greer was actually invoking exactly that somehow with his expensive light shows ? Almost an X-files plot line - a shyster with a real paranormal skill.

I read the wikis on Brown Mountain and I just don't think at this stage you're going to misidentify vehicle lights or any of that. You can speculate on what it is but be far more certain about what it isn't. If you can duplicate that experience, now that's the Golden Wonka ticket.

I really want to get a good DSLR camera, I've tried to capture images of paranormal or elemental events before, but the cameras I have just can't get the lighting or exposure right if at all and especially if its dark...

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HAL9000

Honorable
Yes I'm aware of the wiki, my point was that its not ufos in the sense we typically attribute that acronym nor related to aliens, even though ufo researchers may have been investigating IMO...Its likely some sort of unexplained phenomenon that could be elemental in nature, paranormal or supernatural perhaps...I doubt aliens are flashing lights at people who shine a light or laser in the sky...

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I agree with you.

My point was that, whatever the lights were, when they hit it with the laser (don't know what frequency) it reacted by extinguishing . Maybe just coincidence
The problem with the non-natural ufos, or maybe it's better to call them non natural uaps, if that they seem to defy all we know about physics. Yet they appear as physical objects.
 

Todd Feinman

Show us the satellite pics...
My thoughts in my initial post in this thread haven't changed. A remarkable thing about the phenomenon is that it hasn't caused a tipping point over the years, even with all of the contact; the displays and road encounters, the activity with world militaries. Back in the day civilian witnesses could be threatened, sworn to secrecy, etc.; I think those who would cover it up finally realized just how dense and self-focused out species is, and realized that these encounters would never cause a sea change in the population. I don't see the point of discussing UFOs further with people, and I am beginning to think that indeed we are not ready for or worthy of the level of contact that many would need to convince them of the reality of the phenomenon. That is part of why UFOs behave as they do. All we have done on this planet is glorify our species and try to make apes into gods while we crap in our own bed. kill and poison the other animals on the planet, and develop world-ending weapons. And it is still possible to be a good scientist and yet a close-minded fool, or a politician and a poorly-behaving angry child. No, we are not ready. We are too busy shooting aliens in Halo, wasting time with social networking, or watching some nonsense from Hollywood. In fact the last six years have really made it clear just how unready we are; we'll be lucky not to go extinct ourselves.
So, unless something really amazing happens, I am hanging up the towel. Watch the skies and more importantly we should all watch ourselves.
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
I think that the Bob Lazar case, regardless of how true it actually is, reveals how military and government typically responds to someone trying for disclosure. The USAF and FBI declared it all to be a hoax and Bob is still very much alive and well. The main thing they did in the wake of it was declare more land surrounding A51 to be off limits. Which of course adds more fuel to the fire of speculation that they are hiding something important out there, but I really don't think they care about that.
 

Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
My thoughts in my initial post in this thread haven't changed. A remarkable thing about the phenomenon is that it hasn't caused a tipping point over the years, even with all of the contact; the displays and road encounters, the activity with world militaries. Back in the day civilian witnesses could be threatened, sworn to secrecy, etc.; I think those who would cover it up finally realized just how dense and self-focused out species is, and realized that these encounters would never cause a sea change in the population. I don't see the point of discussing UFOs further with people, and I am beginning to think that indeed we are not ready for or worthy of the level of contact that many would need to convince them of the reality of the phenomenon. That is part of why UFOs behave as they do. All we have done on this planet is glorify our species and try to make apes into gods while we crap in our own bed. kill and poison the other animals on the planet, and develop world-ending weapons. And it is still possible to be a good scientist and yet a close-minded fool, or a politician and a poorly-behaving angry child. No, we are not ready. We are too busy shooting aliens in Halo, wasting time with social networking, or watching some nonsense from Hollywood. In fact the last six years have really made it clear just how unready we are; we'll be lucky not to go extinct ourselves.
So, unless something really amazing happens, I am hanging up the towel. Watch the skies and more importantly we should all watch ourselves.

OK, but there are many things that are constantly progressing: scientific knowledge, technology and contentedness between the people. All these three things gradually increase self sufficiency of people to "dump" the government's narrative. At a "tipping point" politicians and government would just silently groove in as if they never obstructed UFOs in the first place.

Like, 70 years ago we didn't know that there was 5,000 extraterrestrial planets. 30-40 years ago we didn't know that anti-gravity exists for real in form of dark energy. 25 years ago we didn't know that its possible to travel faster then light with warp drives, 20 years ago it wasn't possible to chat for hours on end and for free, with people from all around the globe. 15 years ago not everybody had a video camera on his phone and in his pocket ready to take ( very bad ) UFO videos and broadcast them instantly to whole world. Etc., etc.

As all this knowledge keeps coming together it becomes more and more certain that UFOs are more likely then not. Given, some people realised that 70 years ago and some of our own might be even using this technology. And given again, some people will always believe that Earth is flat. But we'll always love them more then aliens, 'cause they are ours :).
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
That there is Life elsewhere is a given - I have not one shred of doubt but it is an open question if we are being visited and if so with what frequency and to what purpose. Too often reports turn out to be something other than what we thought at first blush.

Just look at that subway shooting in NYC the other day. Here was definitely something that absolutely took everyone by surprise and the eyewitness reports varied quite a bit. They had the generalities but they were mixed in with a lot of fill and that's a direct result of surprise and excitement. Probably similar to turning a bend in a lonely road and seeing a craft of some sort at low level. That's how your memory of the event was stored like taking a snapshot so if later a camera were to reveal something else you might not recognize it under different circumstances.

Oh, and in Brooklyn the cameras malfunctioned due to crapulence not wizardry and 'the phenomenon' didn't reveal itself until it wanted to. At a McDonalds. Busy day, the man needed a bite to eat.

So when you see something ask yourself honestly how likely it is to be something terrestrial and how likely it is not. I've posted pics right here of things that have surprised me that are ordinary planes, etc that could easily have been reported as UFOs by someone less discerning or someone who was surprised and carried away in the moment. For all I know maybe they have been. I'd have to see something really, really weird before I said something else. Doesn't mean I wouldn't, just means my filters are different. Statistically I am far, far more likely to be skeptical of something prosaic than not and I prefer to look in the actual sky for things.
 

Todd Feinman

Show us the satellite pics...
Gosh, it looks like UFOs are turning out to be more than bokeh! Skeptics at other forums seem to be hiding out somewhere, now that NASA is studying these optical illusions and weather balloons and birds! Huh! Who would have thought that ignoring the testimony of UFO witnesses and focusing on blurry photos while refusing to acknowledge the veracity of undebunked photos would take them to this place? :p And, those who have not even seen UFOs for themselves taking ownership of the phenomenon. Strange days indeed... Most peculiar... I wonder if the densest skeptics foresee everything reversing course and going back into the bottle? Seems pretty unlikely these days.
 

Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
That there is Life elsewhere is a given - I have not one shred of doubt but it is an open question if we are being visited and if so with what frequency and to what purpose. Too often reports turn out to be something other than what we thought at first blush.

The answer to these questions is in physics. Physics is not in geometry in mechanics, physics is in electrodynamics, general relativity and quantum mechanics. But problem is people are stupid and lazy, they don't want to sit down and learn physics, so people ask government, which then tells them lies, damn lies.

This is what physics ( most likely ) says: there are such things as warp drives, as discovered by physicist Dr. Miguel Alcuibierre back in 90's. But Dr. Alcubierre said that one would need negative energy size of Jupiter and he went on his merry way. Then Dr. Sony White from NASA had a second look and said you can do it with Volkswagen Beetle size of negative energy.

Now, there is possibility that they are both wrong. Maybe warp drives can be made from each atom in every body, with clever use of external magnetic fields. If that's true, then aliens would be using that technology to cross the voids between the stars. And us knowing what aliens know would be able to do the same.

God, I miss cantankerous Mr. @Thomas R. Morrison, he would put me back in line here.
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
There have been absolutely astounding advances in the technology we use to explore the ocean floor. I'm thinking of rebreathers and the like and that there is some evidence to suggest they can get a man down to about any continental shelf - approximately 2000' - using something like that. You want to visit the ocean floor you can do that with other more robust equipment.

7+ billion of us right here on the planet, it's only just so big, the oceans comprise most of it and yes, we have the tech to do some serious exploring. You could make the argument that statistically it would be more likely than not to have humans exploring the ocean depths at any given moment. Yet that isn't the case at all even though the technology exists. In human terms we can rationalize that there is cost, availability, desire, what have you. All sorts of anthropomorphic reasons why that isn't the case. In light of yesterday, the same could be said about the moon. Sure we have been there, can get there, will go back but if you asked someone in 1970 how often that would be occurring you'd get a very different answer than the way it actually turned out, right ?

The technology exists and we have it and can use it at will, yet there are a number of good reasons why we don't. Human reasons.

Just because the technology exists to traverse interstellar distances doesn't automatically mean that it will be used, or used often, or used to visit us here. I would imagine the motivation to do so would be by definition NOT anthropomorphic and it's entirely possible we couldn't understand the reasoning even if we knew what it was. We don't fully understand many of the life forms right here on our planet, our fellow Earthlings, and I think it a bit premature to suggest we could readily figure out what makes ET do his thing.
 

Todd Feinman

Show us the satellite pics...
It might be useful to think of the phenomenon as some sort of "advanced non-human technology" and avoid the "ET" term altogether. Maybe it is possible that some intelligence found us before we found them; if it is more advanced and within range or was able to detect us somehow, we would be an attractive place to send devices to observe this oasis of life. We have a vast diversity of life that has evolved on this planet and has created so many different biomes and evolved in so many different ways in the midst of large parts of the galaxy that are vacant of life or don't seem to have highly complex life. Perhaps this is the only place within the range of the intelligence, that has life. I think curiosity might be a universal fundament of life, regardless of how or where it develops, and the need to explore and expand might be somewhat universal.
For me, there seems to be certain patterns of behavior that the phenomenon has exhibited over time, and I think that whatever it is, it has been here for a very long time. The "flash and dash" tactics, isolating people or small groups of people in "road encounters", the mass sightings where many are exposed to their displays before they shoot off and leave... Showy maneuvers around weapons testing and nuclear sites... Once you can establish the same type of phenomenon behaving in a controlled manner before we were flying around in the atmosphere --then I think there is no way to put a limit on how far back the phenomenon has been with us. At this point the objects may not be coming in from space on a regular basis, having had ample time to infiltrate the oceans, and other places on the planet, but if I may be allowed to brandish Occam's Razor momentarily, I think it is likely that wherever / whenever they originally came from, it is likely to be physically removed from this planet --even if they are coming from some sort of spacetime portal or something we can't even understand yet. I think the reason the Air Force has been so silent and others whine about sensors being compromised, is because UFOs are seen to be coming in from space periodically, and they seem to be coming in from space in many of the old accounts too; dropping in like shooting stars and then stopping dead in the air and moving off to do their thing. I am further inclined towards this explanation, as with my second sighting the capsule-shaped object / Tic Tac did fly off into space..
 
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Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
It might be useful to think of the phenomenon as some sort of "advanced non-human technology" and avoid the "ET" term altogether. Maybe it is possible that some intelligence found us before we found them; if it is more advanced and within range or was able to detect us somehow, we would be an attractive place to send devices to observe this oasis of life. We have a vast diversity of life that has evolved on this planet and has created so many different biomes and evolved in so many different ways in the midst of large parts of the galaxy that are vacant of life or don't seem to have highly complex life. Perhaps this is the only place within the range of the intelligence, that has life. I think curiosity might be a universal fundament of life, regardless of how or where it develops, and the need to explore and expand might be somewhat universal.
For me, there seems to be certain patterns of behavior that the phenomenon has exhibited over time, and I think that whatever it is, it has been here for a very long time. The "flash and dash" tactics, isolating people or small groups of people in "road encounters", the mass sightings where many are exposed to their displays before they shoot off and leave... Showy maneuvers around weapons testing and nuclear sites... Once you can establish the same type of phenomenon behaving in a controlled manner before we were flying around in the atmosphere --then I think there is no way to put a limit on how far back the phenomenon has been with us. At this point the objects may not be coming in from space on a regular basis, having had ample time to infiltrate the oceans, and other places on the planet, but if I may be allowed to brandish Occam's Razor momentarily, I think it is likely that wherever / whenever they originally came from, it is likely to be physically removed from this planet --even if they are coming from some sort of spacetime portal or something we can't even understand yet. I think the reason the Air Force has been so silent and others whine about sensors being compromised, is because UFOs are seen to be coming in from space periodically, and they seem to be coming in from space in many of the old accounts too; dropping in like shooting stars and then stopping dead in the air and moving off to do their thing. I am further inclined towards this explanation, as with my second sighting the capsule-shaped object / Tic Tac did fly off into space..

Many of these questions can be answered scientifically.

1.) Did they find us before we found them?

Yes
. There are galactic green zones. Galactic green zone is place, or actually a ring, of width of about 1/3 of galactic radius where conditions are most favourable for creation of life. Planet Earth is place on the inner edge of this ring, on the side closer to the deadly galactic centre. There are many astronomical studies that addressed this issue and when its all said, done and all statistics is calculated, it comes out that an average Milky Way green zone civilisation is 2.0 Billion years older then ours. So, aliens have, on average, 2.0 billion years civilisational and technological advantage over us, just by being born in the right place at a right time. Don't let anybody sway you on this one, this is rock solid.

2.) What are aliens doing on Earth?

Simply doing science. Watching and collecting samples. There are millions of uninhabited planets in Milky Way and hundreds of thousands of planets with life. Everything that we have here, is available on any of these millions of planets. You want tons of iron ore? Go to Mars or asteroid belt and dig up as much as you like. In other words, aliens need none of our resources, because they are available everywhere.

From a point of view of a civilisation that is 2.0 billion years ahead of us, Earth is in no way special. Only we think we are special. All the upstarts think they are special.

What are our scientists who are studying animals in Africa doing? They are watching them, tagging them, inserting chips into them and occasionally hunting animals down and cutting them up to study anatomy and biochemistry of these animals. And these is major theme in UFO encounter. I don't know how many times I've read an UFO story were witness caught aliens while they were in a middle of wood or a farmer's field collecting plants. This is precisely what explains the frequency of alien visitations. Its hard to say, but by broadly estimating from number of MUFON cases I would personally have impression that there are around 1,000 serious contact cases per year in the whole world. That's not enough to mount an invasion or mount a threat. Its just for keeping an eye on things.

3.) Are aliens threat to us?

Stupidity of this question really makes me sick. If aliens are 2.0 billion years older then us, they had been visiting Earth for at least few million or few thousand years. Did aliens ever attack us on mass during all this time? Well, answer is NO! They have no reason. They've got everything we want, so they don't need to.

Some people keep talking about security and there is a danger that by repeating this idiocy a culture of hate towards aliens will be created. As I explained above, apart from a negligible number of abductions and carving ups for science, aliens can't care less about attacking us. Numbers of harmed humans is so small that we simply have to put up with it, at least until we catch up technologically.

Presence of aliens actually makes for a huge economic, technological and cultural opportunity for all of mankind and we should be making active efforts to develop proactive and mutually beneficial relationships with alien civilisations.
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Good post.

I would imagine the motivation to do so would be by definition NOT anthropomorphic and it's entirely possible we couldn't understand the reasoning even if we knew what it was.

we would be an attractive place to send devices to observe this oasis of life

the need to explore and expand might be somewhat universal

I dunno if we can make those assumptions - they apply to us. Sounds reasonable but the concept of advanced non-humans with highly advanced technology that are not at all curious, that look at exploration and expansion very differently is something I just read in a series of old short stories by Fred Saberhagen with the alien as the omniscient narrator.

Being skeptical I check myself often to see if I have a real point or am just being a nitwit.

The reverse is true; make sure you're not fitting evidence to an established favored theory rather than seeing what the evidence is actually telling you. Stitching together old accounts that support a line of thinking strike me as slippery, prone to error. I think there is evidence to believe that we are indeed being visited but the vast majority of the phenomenon points to the source being sociological in nature, not alien. This is not me paraphrasing Neil deGrasse Tyson anyone else, more a comment on media on which the event gets recorded - which is us with all our foibles.
 

Todd Feinman

Show us the satellite pics...
Good points! I certainly don't know why UFOs are here or where they come from. A lot of folks are shocked when they encounter them, as I was. I do believe the vast majority of sightings can indeed be explained as misinterpretations of mundane phenomenon, but anomalies remain. I am still struck the similarities with old accounts, and the lack of understanding of the true nature of the phenomenon after all of these years. Well, into the shower and off to work, now!
 

Todd Feinman

Show us the satellite pics...
My own experiences were so unlikely, that they seemed almost to be deliberate.. I spent many months in Outward Bound courses when I was a much younger guy --out in the middle of nowhere in the Rockies and other mountains and didn't see a thing. I'd expect to have a higher likelihood of seeing UFOs out in the wilderness where they are less likely to alert a lot of people. The two last places I would ever have expected to see UFOs would be alone on a usually pretty busy highway, and in my backyard in Portland, Oregon, at this house: 4140 SW Cullen Blvd, Portland, OR 97221 | realtor.com®
I would assume that some other people might have witnessed the capsule / Tic Tac object departing into space (my second sighting), but I haven't seen other accounts about it online--unlike my first encounter where the objects were seen by others a few months later --further south, where I saw them headed. In those encounters, there were a bunch of folks around, pulled off the side of the road (including the police officer and Air Force pilot). The truck driver in Riddle in the second corroborative sighting was apparently alone. With the crazy coincidences around my first encounter (including my long-time office mate being the exact neighbor of the Trents in McMinnville), and the other bizarre synchronicities.. My mind almost wants to invoke the "supernatural" whatever the heck that might be!
So, I have tried to understand these capabilities as some kind of AI or intelligence that live in a meta-universe of information that is far beyond us; able to see connections between events in the future and operating in a manner that is godlike. There are cases where UFOs seem to track families or individuals longitudinally, and some can have more than one experience. Otherwise, I would be faced with those crazy synchronicities in addition to seeing UFOs.. Twice.. And I can't even begin to understand how strange that would be...
If I was going to fake a UFO sighting to convince skeptics, I sure as heck wouldn't come up with the accounts I have related! I would have made mine more like the first corroborative account; with other people around --perhaps at a remote location at a lake or something or on a remote drive somewhere --perhaps to the coast. I would have related that the other people took off quickly being scared by the objects --or something...
But I related what I have seen long before the Pentagon stuff and long before the descriptions of the Tic Tacs, balls of light, harassing ships, etc. Indeed, I had pretty much winded things down over at Historum --when the Pentagon stuff with Elizondo happened.
On Beautiful sunny days like today, I find it hard to believe that I saw UFOs in the blue sky, but I did. I sympathize with skeptics at times like that, and feel sorry for them, too. I also feel something akin to survivor guilt --why would I get to see them and not someone like Stephen Hawking or even Einstein or some other great scientific mind???The whole thing is a HUGE mindf*ck.
 
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