Undebunkable or What?

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by 1963, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. 1963

    1963 Noble

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    Hi guys, just for the hell of it I thought that I would attempt to start a thread in order to encourage a sensible discussion between the opposing sides of the ETH about the very best cases that there are and have ever been, in order to try and learn something instead of bludgeoning through logical impasses in cases in order to 'make them work for us' … or fit into our own preconceived ideas. [worth a try anyway]
    And to kick the thread off, I thought that I would suggest that we consider the old 1959 Father Gill Case!
    As a well confirmed member of the 'Pro-ETH-Club', and one that thoroughly enjoys seeing people on 'the other side of the fence' [so to speak] express just why they are of an opposing view of the veracity of some of my own preferred cases,.. I often have this nagging feeling of bewilderment about the reasons stated for the negative responses given with regards to the possibilities of certain testimonies being adequate proof of the probability of the ETH,...or even that I find often is the case that when what I consider pretty compelling evidence [usually in the form of reliable testimony] is presented by one of the excellent researchers that drop by these forums from time to time,[Karl 12 and SoulDrifter comes to mind] is almost always ignored by the 'heavy-sceptics' altogether! ...... Does this mean that there is no none-extraterrestrial explanation possible?...if so, then why are you still opposed to the ETH? .. which is of course a pure common sense question , or logic if you prefer, .. but then, as this simple query seems to be leading to an unfavourable conclusion to the said 'heavy-sceptics' , instead of even the merest contemplation of consideration that the mantra of 'it simply can't be true' … could in fact be wrong?... Out trots the silly "explanations" eg, Swamp Gas, Holograms in the desert, Flock of Pelicans and the perennial favourite king of the UFO's-Venus, etc, etc... and in this my all-time number one favourite [and imho, strongest] case... we get that old arch-enemy-of-the-truth Donald Menzel proclaiming a case of "bad eyesight and magically waving eye-lashes... and there's nothing to see here , move on!" [and yes that really did happen... he announced that theory with a straight face, and stood by it even when people on his own team said to him, "now steady on Don, that's too silly even for us!"]. … And then after fifty odd years of this being the official debunk to this grand old case, a modern young gun debunker [Martin Kottmeyer Gill Again: The Father Gill Case Reconsidered Martin Kottmeyer | MAGONIA ] decided to update the silliness by switching the 'official-explanation' to the whole saga being down to nothing more anomalous than "a miraculous squid-boat mirage" [yep! .. he did!]
    Of course, anyone that knows me will know how passionate I am about the weird and wonderful 1959 Father Gill Papua New Guinea Encounters and will know that I fetch it up periodically, because I just cant get it out of my head, and To be honest, I truly believe that a case such as this [that I am fairly sure that most people here will already be familiar with,] deserves a lot more thought put into the debunk , otherwise it must be considered the real deal, and that any further search for the smoking gun is pointless... because we've already had it for years and years!


    It wasn’t hyperbole. There are 38 witnesses. No other entity case comes close to that number. Twenty-five signed their names to a detailed report. Five of them were teachers and three were medical assistants. There was agreement the object was circular, had a wide base, a narrow upper deck, a type of legs, four human figures, and a shaft of blue light which shone upwards into the sky at an angle of 45°. It was visible for hours....

    http://malcolmsanoma...-gills-own.html

    here's a snippet of the main witness himself,..check him out and see if you think he is a snakeoil-salesman?


    ....And if that wasn't enough,..there is also independent corroboratory testimony that 'unearthly flying vehicles' were uninhibitedly parading around the vicinity at the time in question!

    http://malcolmsanoma...ather.html#more


    Though I admit that this case is a fairly-unusual one, with an unlikely scenario....it is also a case that has consistently rebuffed any kind of reasonable debunking!...and many have tried over the course of the 54 years or so since the event. And i'll even go so far as to say that it has made monkeys out of the high-priests of UFO-debunkery ....Phil Klass reckoned that the whole thing was just a story made up by Gill and corroborated by all of the other folk designed to wind up Father Crutwell, a friend of Gill's !
    ...And Donald Menzel proclaimed that, he and all of the 37 other witnesses that were present along with Father Gill, as well as the other seven or so independent witnesses that I know about from other parts of the region had been foolish enough to have been fooled by 'VENUS', !...even though Father Gill mentioned that he could also see Venus at the time!...
    ...and funniest of all was that Menzel asserts that the waving occupants of
    Venus
    the vehicle was "the witnesses own out of focus eyelashes!"...
    [​IMG]


    The list of attempts to debunk this case goes on and on,...with silly explanations varying from 'moving planets' to 'mirages of boats' etc ...but the plain fact is that no other explanation, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but no matter the unfathomable motivations of operations being carried out by the occupants of those strange flying craft's that were witnessed by so many respectable witnesses on those three nights in Papua 1959 fits the scenario as good as the ETH!...


    Cheers.



    GORT...KLAATU BARADA NIKTO.
     
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  2. 1963

    1963 Noble

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    698
  3. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    4,327
    its definitely an interesting case, not strange enough to me though, that case rates as an "A" in rosales' CE3 classification
     
  4. 1963

    1963 Noble

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    698
    Hi HL... thanks for the response matey :Thumbsup: … but "not strange enough" to you?
    Well that's left me scratching my head alright. "Not strange enough" ? Does that mean that the fact that the occupants of an UFO [flying saucer] actually acknowledges the witnesses [of which there were many] by moving the craft to the beat of a torchlight and then actually physically waving in response to those same witnesses is "Not Strange Enough For You"? … if so then please tell me what is strange enough for you my friend.

    Cheers buddy.
     
  5. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    landed UFO sightings where the occupants are seen collecting samples are more interesting from a scientific perspective
     
  6. Sheltie

    Sheltie good to the last drop

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    I just stumbled across this video suggested to me by YouTube so I thought I would post it. I think it's one of the better dramatizations of the Father Gill case. Being one of 1963's favorite cases, I know we've discussed it a number of times. It's one of my personal favorites also as it's so different from most cases.

    The whole idea that he was a missionary in a foreign land trying to help the locals puts me in the mind of The Mission with Jeremy Irons. He was of course scrutinized and criticized but stuck to his belief along with the many islanders who were also eyewitnesses. Only a few years after the end of World War II, it was still very much a low tech world, especially in the South Pacific.

    The encounter became an almost spiritual experience culminating in the eyewitnesses seeing and waving to figures inside the craft.
     
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  7. 1963

    1963 Noble

    Messages:
    698
    Thanks Sheltie, and apologies for the diabolically late response mate. ... it's always been my favourite case and I haven't visited this thread for so long. :scratch_one-s_head:.. real good post mate! :Thumbsup:

    Cheers Buddy.
     
  8. 1963

    1963 Noble

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    698
    The reason that I bumped this old thread is because I found a very interesting case that I had not come across before that might just possibly be related to the 1959 Boiani event in which the Rev William Gill, his compatriots and dozens of witnesses had a completely fantastic few days in regards to being witness to a vivid UFO event that I believe to be the very best available testimonial evidence toward acceptability of the ETH.

    I found this remarkable case by accident when trying to research another [as usually happens] .. it was while I was browsing the net for more information on a UFO photograph that particularly impressed me when it was brought to my attention by our good friend August a couple or so years back. I have been 'on and off' searching for some kind of corroboration of it's authenticity by means of tracking down the 'sometime engineer/sometime American Californian college tutor' that took the negatives to his College over in the States for analysis , but could not find anything out about the man and his proposed analysis, except there is hearsay that the clumbsy swine had gone and lost them! .. However I did previously find out that the photograph's fame was down to J Allen Hynek endorsing the apparent validity of the photograph , even though he himself had it Analysed by 'top-dog' Dr Fred Beckman whom was also impressed but was reluctant to declare it's authenticity without the negatives. I also was aware that Hynek had been alerted to the photograph by means of it's use by a Indonesian UFO expert and writer on the front cover his 1982 book ... UFO: Salah satu masalah dunia masa kini ...[UFO, One Of The Present Riddles] below..

    [​IMG]

    ... and just today when indulging my quest [yet again] I decided to see if the author of that book was himself 'a respectable researcher'? [or was he the kind that would push duds for book sales?] .. and when delving into the now deceased writers history I was pleasantly surprised to find an impeccably lauded researcher with an equally respectable life story and ufological credentials! ... That man was named R J Salatun [Jacob to his friends] , and here's a quick biography of Mr Salatun's life and career ...
    .. and he wrote his first book on the subject in 1960 (Revealing the Secret of Flying Saucer) ... but it wasn't until 1974 that he had his own UFO sighting and in 1982. He established SUFOI (Indonesian UFO Study) in the 1980s. In a letter published in 1974 he wrote, "I am convinced that we must study the UFO problem seriously for reasons of sociology, technology, and security."
    Impressive career and by all accounts , as reliable a source as they come! [​IMG]
    Kembara Langit: Belated Obituary - R.J. Salatun
    .. And so I trawled the net a bit more in hopes of finding an English language version [free of course lol] of the relevant book to see if I could glean any more information on that pesky photo that has been plaguing my mind for so long... but so far have not had any luck. [I know , i'm rubbish at this] ... but did happen across Jacob's own favourite case [that he also wrote about in his book] and that was ... 'The Alor and Pantor Island's Strange Visitors of 1959'. ... and here is a quickie english version of that documented event ... Alor & Pantar Islands: Strange Visitors In 1959 – Ghost Theory
    1959: Six Aliens in Alor Islands, East Nusa Tenggara, Indonesia - Think AboutIt
    [​IMG]
    ... I know that it is a totally different kind of event, but the contemporaneous and locational similarities just has my mind buzzing with ... coincidence?
    What about you guys... what do you think?

    Cheers.
     
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  9. August

    August Metanoia

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    6,143
    I agree with one of the 2 comments that were left on that article
    UFO Salah Satu Masalah Dunia Masa Kini
    they said " Why do I feel the local reaction would be the same today as it was then . We are not ready ".
    I will keep looking for an English translation to this book if there was one.
     
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  10. August

    August Metanoia

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    6,143
    Found this one.
     
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  11. August

    August Metanoia

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    6,143
    This video from 1959 doesn't say where it was taken though.
     
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  12. Double Nought Spy

    Double Nought Spy Easily Amused

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    Well that was quite the rabbit hole! Thanks
     
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  13. August

    August Metanoia

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  14. 1963

    1963 Noble

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    698
    Hi Auggie, thanks for the video my friend. :Thumbsup: ... it was an interesting watch even though I couldn't understand a single word. :Tongue: ... but I got the gist of it as it was taken directly from Salatun's book which I have now downloaded and am currently reading ... and am pleased to find that I wasn't the first person to suspect that there might be a link between the two cases. .. in fact Salatun had written about his suspicions on this connection almost forty years ago!
    ... I haven't finished the book yet [having to have each page translated is a drag] mainly because I like to digest information of this kind slowly, and also I skipped most of it in eagerness to find the two main parts that I was looking for... the 1975 Tony Hartono picture [which started this adventure] ... and am disappointed to say that nothing new was revealed! ... "He took the picture of the classic flying saucer, that was witnessed earlier in the day by Professor Ted Telch of the Boston University USA. ... then gave the negatives to an american workmate that was going back to the states and was mean't to have it analysed at a California college [but lost the negatives] ... and that Hynek got hold of the picture through Salatun, had it analysed by top-boys whom were equally impressed but reticent to make any judgements without the [lost] negatives... and that's just about all that it says in the book! ... and now, Hartono, Hynek and Salatun have all passed away... I cannot find Dr. Ted Telch for love nor money, and the negatives will probably never turn up! .. and so it's with heavy heart that I say that This Brilliant Picture, is yet another smoking gun that has proven to be ..just out of reach!! :(
    file:///C:/Users/User/Downloads/salatun-book.pdf
    Thanks also for this video Auggie, it was from around the correct period ... a month after the Boianai events with Father Gill, so still could have come from the Alor/Pantar Islands case wich is only recorded as being 'July 1959' ... but I don't think it has anything to do with the Father Gill, or the A/P island cases because neither of them involve any filming of UFO's, ... however I think that i've managed to find the true identity of the film and that is that it is the 1959 Ray Stanford film of an alleged UFO taken over Corpus Christi Texas on that day [July 28th 1959] and was identified by J Allen Hynek as being ... wait for it! ... "A daylight film of the plant Venus"! ... and is in the NICAP records here... 1959 UFO Chronology http://www.nicap.org/docs2/1959_07_28_Corpus_Christi_Texas.pdf
    ... Make of the film what you want, [and for that matter 'Ray Stanford' whom I know was a pretty respectable UFO researcher at one time ... before his latter-day outrageous claims of exceptional knowledge and possession of 'the smoking-gun' ... but not sharing with you nar-narh!] ... but I found a statement from a researcher that says ...
    ... but I cannot find a copy of that particular issue [for free] online.

    Cheers Auggie.
     
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  15. August

    August Metanoia

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    Wow that's interesting. Can you actually 'buy' a copy ?
     
  16. Sheltie

    Sheltie good to the last drop

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    I like the fact that you're not afraid to admit to the serendipitous nature of your research, 1963, after all, that's how life usually seems to work! And, yes, Mr. Salutan certainly has some impressive credentials. What really jumps out at me about this case is the similarities to the Kelly-Hopkinsville Encounter in Kentucky around the same period. I suppose these things are very open for interpretation so one could easily substitute goblins for little men. The less-than-welcoming greeting by locals in both stories was very unfortunate.
     
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  17. August

    August Metanoia

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    Shows where the Father Gill case happened. [​IMG]
     
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  18. 1963

    1963 Noble

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    698
    Hi Sheltie, hope you and yours are well old mate. :Thumbsup: ... Yes the Kelly Hopkinsville Encounter does spring to mind when reading the Salatun A/P Island case, but was four years prior to that one wasn't it... but yes the similarities are quite clear, and the less-than-welcoming greeting by locals [as you say] seems unfortunate to me too.
    .. And the description of these slightly-goblin-like entities also bring to mind the 'Aliens' roughly described in several other claimed cases too, including the Donald Strum ' Cisco Grove Encounter' of 1964 [complete with robot assistants] and the more recent 'ailing-alien-abductees' in the 1996 Varginha Incident from down there in Brazil.
    The 1964 Cisco Grove Encounter
    The Varginha, Brazil Entity

    Cheers Buddy.
     
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  19. August

    August Metanoia

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    Mentions it was Hovercraft like.
     
  20. August

    August Metanoia

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    Papua, New Guinea. Fr. William Booth Gill lectures in the UK regarding his observation of flying saucers and humanoids at Papua, New Guinea. 44 minute interview.

     

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