Unofficial Military (and other cool) Stuff Thread

All sides censor those things, some for good reasons. Authoritarian regimes tend not to. After Midway the survivors of Kido Butai were sequestered and told not to speak under pain of punishment. After Savo Island those reports were squashed for months - it was not time to show the American public that many destroyed ships and floating bodies, although it was only suppressed a short time based on tactical considerations.

At those five Normandy invasion beaches I don't ever remember seeing pictures of how many innocent French civilians that were liberated to shreds with high explosives.

History is written by the winners not active participants.
 
USS Wisconsin (BB 64) tied up alongside the hulk of the salvaged battleship USS Oklahoma (BB 37) at Pearl Harbor in November 1944, prior to her departure to join up with the 3rd Fleet

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Very interesting book that'll put you off your feed a few days, it's about salvage operations in Pearl Harbor after Dec 7. Six out of eight BBs were raised, repaired, modernized and used effectively against the Japanese. Mostly as shore bombardment platforms but you might say they ultimately had their revenge at Suriago Straight where they actually fought against their intended adversaries although that was more of an execution.

The pic I just posted shows the difference between what was in service at the time of Pearl Harbor and what came after. I've been aboard Wisconsin @ Norfolk and she's a big girl for sure.

USS North Carolina is docked in Wilmington DE and definitely worth an afternoon's visit. It was not an Iowa rather an interim class. I was just reading about one of it's first uses in the Battle of the Eastern Solomons; when it was first engaged those around it thought it either blew up or was on fire due to the volume of fire coming from it's AA batteries. Tough customer, that one. When I saw it many years ago it was still basically in it's WW2 kit.


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Shipwrecks of WW2, Allies are blue, Axis is red:

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Thieves Are Stripping Sunken World War II Shipwrecks of Their Valuable Steel


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One of three Japanese cargo transports from World War II that lie off the coast of Borneo and have been destroyed by illegal metal salvage operations. Authorities describe them as "an unrecognizable heap of metal piled up into a ball.” (Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency)

In 2017, a civilian search team discovered the wreck of the USS Indianapolis in a 600-mile swathe of the Pacific Ocean. The 10,000-ton heavy cruiser was sunk by two torpedoes in the Philippine Sea in July 1945. Though the wreck was finally found, its location was kept a secret because it was the tomb of an estimated 300 American sailors.
The story of the Indianapolis is much more tragic than just its sinking, and such a storied ship and crew deserve to be honored and memorialized. But some who discover wrecks like these tend to have a "finder's keepers" mentality about what's lying on the ocean floor. Many turn out to be treasure hunters or scrappers, according to National Geographic.

Their most recent treasure isn't gold or silver, but steel from wrecked warships -- and some salvagers are willing to desecrate the underwater tombs of war dead to get it.
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The HMAS Perth was sunk in March 1942 at the Battle of Sunda Strait, taking more than 300 sailors down with it. (U.S. Navy/Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Arthurgwain L. Marquez)

There's a particular reason why the steel of sunken warships is so valuable. All the steel produced after World War II was irreversibly irradiated with radioactive cobalt isotopes during the process of mixing iron and carbon as an unexpected consequence of global atomic testing. As a result, nuclear fallout has been a part of all steel made after the Atomic Era. Steel made before World War II is now known as "low-background steel" and is usually found in old shipwrecks, artillery shells and other wartime materiel.

This background radiation isn't dangerous, and it doesn't really change how we make or use steel -- unless that steel is used to make things that are sensitive to radiation, such as certain scientific and medical equipment. Its use in medicine and high-tech research, along with its limited supply, means low-background steel is exceptionally valuable -- and like all things with such a high value, some aren't too concerned about where they get it.

There's nothing inherently wrong with using old shipwrecks, which has long been a major source of this kind of steel (the exception is warships and submarines, which only the government of the flagged vessel can legally salvage due to espionage concerns). Shipwrecks within a nation's territorial waters are governed by those nations. The estimated 6,000 World War II wrecks should be protected by existing legislation, but enforcement can be difficult.

It's not known exactly when the practice began (it's different for each newly discovered wreck), but illegal scrappers are responsible for stealing steel from wrecks that are actually the final resting places of thousands of World War II-era service members. A 2017 report from The Guardian notes that warships containing the corpses of 4,500 troops may have been destroyed in the hunt for valuable low-background steel
In the Pacific Ocean alone, there are an estimated 13 million tons of sunken warships, with potentially tens of thousands of war dead entombed inside. Analysts have discovered that at least 40 of these sunken vessels, which are also the graves of British, American, Australian, Dutch and Japanese troops, have been disturbed in the hunt for low--background steel.
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Image of the USS Indianapolis wreck, from the expedition funded and led by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen.

Illegal scrap metal divers have ripped apart three Dutch and three British ships that were first discovered in 2002 off the coast of Indonesia. An American submarine wreck, the USS Perch, had also disappeared. Although the American sailors were captured by the Japanese, hundreds of Dutch and British sailors were thought to be in the wrecks. Similar losses have been reported off the coasts of Malaysia and Borneo.
In 2018, the remains of 300 sailors who died aboard Australia's famed light cruiser HMAS Perth were found to be "devastated" after scrappers illegally salvaged an estimated 60%-70% of the wreck. Perth was sunk by the Japanese in 1942, taking 353 men down with it. It was discovered in 1967, but by 2013, scrappers had begun stealing its superstructure, turrets and armor plating.
Salvaging these ships is usually done using crane-equipped barges and explosives, with little thought toward the men entombed inside. They also leave the unmistakable evidence of salvage, causing damage that could not have been done by enemy weapons. Plenty of legislation to protect these sites already exists, but actually implementing it depends on cooperation between the countries where the vessels lay and the state that created the ships.
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Chuan Hong 68, a Chinese bulk carrier detained for illegally salvaging a Dutch submarine in 2012. (Malaysian Maritime Enforcement Agency)

As the equipment used to legally salvage ships from the bottom of the ocean improves, the danger to Pacific shipwrecks will only increase. Vessels protected by the depths may soon lose that protection unless countries that control the territorial waters begin protecting these historic sites.

 
In the UFO, Skeptics & Disclosure thread @Rick Hunter mentioned early attempts at remotely controlled aircraft. In 2025 remote human operators of drones are probably the pinnacle of that concept, The Robotic Loyal Wingman or its ilk will probably supplant that if the tech and $$ can be worked out.

In a related topic this Mark Felton video he mentions that hitting warships from the air with unguided bombs isn't easy. He's not kidding. I've been reading extensively about the WW2 Pacific theater and it involved waiting until dive bombers released their weapons before maneuvering away from them which must take some iron .... nerve. It's a surprisingly successful tactic, even very large warships like carriers were quite capable of doing so - and did.

Typically, the Germans figured out some advanced things way before anyone.

 
Big Gun Battles: Warship Duels of the Second World War

Robert Stern was a surprise find. As these things go authors like Ian Toll could put you right on the deck of USS Constitution with Isaac Hull fighting HMS Guerriere. Stern has no such flair, he's technical but still (to me) very interesting. There are some bits about the Atlantic theater with lots of info about how the Kriegsmarine operated. I never knew they sunk a British aircraft carrier with gunfire and now I do. No doubt the Japanese were literally drooling at the prospect and made several unsuccessful attempts at it early in the war.

The reason I stuck the Greyhound reference at the bottom is because I saw it recently and it reminded me of the salient point of Stern's book: the actual ratio of hits to misses and shots fired in far lower than I had thought. That shows it pretty well.

Bismarck was the gunfighter, the actual sharpshooter at 6.5% due to excellent German range finding equipment and practices. They weren't perfect and had no lack of self inflicted engineering issues, something I was also unaware of. More commonly it was 0 to 2% at most across all navies. Abysmally low but that was in a period. Stern also describes the differences in the techniques and theories behind them each navy used and admittedly it's a tech geekout but what the hell.

Not quite done with the book, right now its fighting off Attu in the hellish arctic weather in 1942. November 1942 is the first effective use of radar guided naval gunnery that I am aware of, prior to that it was a lot of fumbling around. I'm curious to see how it changes those percentages.


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Once I perfect my observe-only time machine I think I'll go on an anti shipping strike with B-25s. Skip bombing, nose mounted cannon and a ludicrous number of .50 cal looks like a hoot.

When we were at Udvar-Hazy I ran into a man who was selling his autobiography. He said he was a 19 year old kid and they handed him a P-47 and he spent his days strafing trains and anything else he could find. He admitted that apart from the context he had the time of his life. I don't doubt it.

 
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Basin of river Mississippi, aka Mid West, is the biggest naturally irrigated fertile land basin on the planet.

Back at a beginning of 19th century Napoleon sold it to US because France was short on cash and it needed money for it's constant wars. Second reason why Napoleon sold it to US, as he stated himself, was do "screw" England, because it would increase US capacity to feed larger population.

But Mississippi basin didn't just screw Britain, it screwed Ottoman empire as well. The main export commodity of Ottoman empire whas wheat, but US started flooding world's markets with cheap wheat. That cause drastic fall in income of Ottoman empire and they simply run out of money to finance large army that they need to keep up the empire. As a result Ottomans went bankrupt in 1875 and was referred as "sick man of Europe".

Running out of money to keep up large military is recurring reason for empire collapse, and as far as I know, happened to ancient Egypt, Rome, Ottomans, USSR, etc.
 
Yes, we're doomed. I'll add that to my calendar.

Now then, some completely pointless historical comments about the Big Muddy. How Grant took Vicksburg in 1863 is interesting including gunboats running the gauntlet of fortifications. The capture of New Orleans and nearby Mobile Bay are also good reading. "Damn the torpedoes" and all that - if he ever actually said that. Foote and Farragut appear to have been made of sterner stuff than most. That's a polite way of saying giant cast iron balls (and I'm not talking about cannons).

More recently and with what we think of as torpedoes it was about fleet subs. In WW2 when you think of submarine construction and aircraft carrier training the Great Lakes isn't what comes to mind immediately but they made a bunch up there and used dry docks to float them down the river to open water. Clever fellers.


The USS Cobia was one of them and it was just in the news. I believe it has the only fully restored SJ type radar from that era still working - or one of the very few at any rate. When I was there back in the 90s it was looking a bit dilapidated but you could still see battle damage from strafing runs. Believe me when I say I am in no hurry to return to Wisconsin any time soon but if I had a transporter I'd pop in here real quick to have a look.



 
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Yes, we're doomed. I'll add that to my calendar.

Now then, some completely pointless historical comments about the Big Muddy. How Grant took Vicksburg in 1863 is interesting including gunboats running the gauntlet of fortifications. The capture of New Orleans and nearby Mobile Bay are also good reading. "Damn the torpedoes" and all that - if he ever actually said that. Foote and Farragut appear to have been made of sterner stuff than most. That's a polite way of saying giant cast iron balls (and I'm not talking about cannons).

More recently and with what we think of as torpedoes it was about fleet subs. In WW2 when you think of submarine construction and aircraft carrier training the Great Lakes isn't what comes to mind immediately but they made a bunch up there and used dry docks to float them down the river to open water. Clever fellers.


The USS Cobia was one of them and it was just in the news. I believe it has the only fully resorted SJ type radar from that era still working - or one of the very few at any rate. When I was there back in the 90s it was looking a bit dilapidated but you could still see battle damage from strafing runs. Believe me when I say I am in no hurry to return to Wisconsin any time soon but if I had a transporter I'd pop in here real quick to have a look.




Oh, I wasn't thinking about US. US military budget is very low, under 5%. USSR military budget when it collapsed was 35%.
 
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