Duke University Removes Confederate Statue

Standingstones

Celestial
Not really.......its only that way if you ignore history.

If that was the case then why do most people know the loser at Waterloo and not the winner.

It certainly isn't the case in the American Civil War.
I doubt that if you asked ten random people on the street that they would know anything about the Battle of Waterloo, let alone the battlefield leaders.

If you are saying that the Confederate side got the last word in modern day history books how the American Civil War went, I seriously disagree with that assessment.
 

Castle-Yankee54

Celestial
If you are saying that the Confederate side got the last word in modern day history books how the American Civil War went, I seriously disagree with that assessment.

No I didn't say that at all......but there is more than enough history about the confederacy......even why they started the war and what they were fighting for has been written as part of history.

From their point of view.
 

The shadow

The shadow knows!
Robert E lee opposed slavery.
robert-e-lee-there-is-a-terrible-war-coming-and-27486536.png
 

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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Most people don't do the deep dive when it comes to our own history. These statues have become an emotional knee-jerk reaction that's today's problem. An in depth understanding of the issues involved in the Civil War isn't required.

A couple of years ago I heard one of the talking heads on one of the newsish-entertainment channels. Eboni Williams I think. Beauty queen, at some point either in school or early in her law career she said that one day she noticed a particular statue - no idea which one - and thought "why do I have to walk past that every day?" Actually, I can't argue with that. Not sure I would place the same emphasis on doing anything about it, but I can understand the sentiment. If I were black I don't think I'd care for it much either. Probably something you don't notice until you do and then it starts to gnaw at you.

Cherry picking people and quotes out of context to support one point or another isn't going to settle any debates. Someone like a Robert E Lee or Nathan Bedford Forrest have to be taken in context to have meaning - but of course, that isn't how things work. They were three dimensional real people with bad breath, faults and virtue the same as anyone. Slavery was just one of the reasons for the Civil War, not the only one. It was primarily about economics; King Cotton. But slavery is the only issue that resonates today. If you could speak to the men whose statues are being removed and tell them that it's because of slavery I bet you'd get some odd looks. So if we have to put away some statues so be it as long as nobody's getting killed over old hunks of pigeon shit encrusted marble.

We're already editing what pass for text books for PC content - we have to mention that despite scientific discovery the world might've just popped into existence six thousand years ago. No doubt some of that will be applied to some of this and I wonder what the Civil War I've been reading about most of my life will eventually look like to the uninitiated in say, fifty years or so.

Dan Carlin uses the phrase 'historical arsonist' to describe the right person in the right place and time to set off an historical forest fire that fundamentally changes the world. Genghis Khan being one of them. We can sit dispassionately and examine this, especially with the benefit of many centuries of hindsight, and see that yes indeed in the end that historical arsonist may well have done the world a favor through their actions. But if it were your family being put to the sword or your home being torched you might not feel quite so generous. Robert E Lee might have been a man of honor but if it were your family being broken up for sale that might be hard to see. If we look back at the Civil War and wish to deify someone with a statue then we should at least extend that level of 'historical appreciation' to everyone involved.

I say that those statues serve as reminders of not only the War but the follow on century plus of segregation, inequality, injustice. Not enough time has passed for the heat to be removed from the history. Exactly what good it'll do to remove statues that many people probably hadn't paid much attention to remains to be seen.
 

Castle-Yankee54

Celestial
Slavery was just one of the reasons for the Civil War, not the only one. It was primarily about economics; King Cotton. But slavery is the only issue that resonates today.

If you could speak to the men whose statues are being removed and tell them that it's because of slavery I bet you'd get some odd looks. So if we have to put away some statues so be it as long as nobody's getting killed over old hunks of pigeon shit encrusted marble.

The southern economy was based on agriculture such as cotton, tobacco and sugar. It was made profitable by slave labor......and for the confederacy it was all about slavery due to their beliefs in white supremacy/superiority. Lee was a very religious man......but their belief was that slavery was their God given right and that it was a natural and normal condition.

Based on their beliefs on slavery I'd say both would agree with it.

I can also see how such violence could be anticipated with such monuments being removed....since they are considered objects of worship and veneration.
 

erickson

Honorable
Before we left on a trip to New Orleans, I read Mitch Landrieu's book In the Shadow of Statues about taking down the Lost Cause statues in that city. He described the statues as representing a stolen or perverse history. He was right.

Lee was many things, including a harsh slave owner. He broke the Washington-Custis tradition and separated families. He inflicted physical punishments. He was described by one slave as "the worst man I ever see.”

When we were last there - was it really 15 years ago? - we did not give his statue a second thought when we took the trolley through the circle, out to Camelia Grill for pecan waffles. I had enough privilege to ignore it, but the meaning of the statue should not have been ignored. It took some dedicated work to show us a better way. I am glad that if my African-American granddaughter ever visits the city she will not have to walk under his gaze.

From New Orleans we went to Montgomery to visit the Equal Justice Initiative's Legacy Museum and their memorial for peace and justice- remembering the victims of lynching. We stopped at the Pettus Bridge in Selma, where John Lews and others were beaten while attempting to walk to Montgomery for voting rights. We visited tributes to Rosa Parks and the Freedom Riders. And we stood between statues of Jeff Davis and James Sims on the steps of the Capital, where Dr. King had reminded us that it would not be long, because no lie can last forever.

There is the right side and wrong side of history. I have no problem with acknowledging the past, but that history is preserved in ways that go beyond statues. I prefer to honor those who stood for the right side.
 
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Standingstones

Celestial
Robert E. Lee, pure and simple, was a harsh slave owner and racist. Many of the statements he made about having a change of heart about black men and women were made after the end of the war. Lee had to change his outlook and tone of voice as many Northerners wanted lynch both Jefferson Davis and himself.

I am paraphrasing this, but Lee stated it wasn't up to him to decide the black man's fate, but it was up to God. Lee had ample opportunities to release his slaves during the war, but he didn't.
 

Castle-Yankee54

Celestial
Robert E. Lee, pure and simple, was a harsh slave owner and racist. Many of the statements he made about having a change of heart about black men and women were made after the end of the war. Lee had to change his outlook and tone of voice as many Northerners wanted lynch both Jefferson Davis and himself.

I can't say as I blame them on that idea........but Lee wasn't a very good general and did a great deal to help the Union. He was also far more of a criminal that General Sherman never was.
 

SOUL-DRIFTER

Life Long Researcher
It will not end with this statue.
It will continue on and on and on until they demand that Mt. Rushmore be dynamited because that too is offensive.

But maybe they should step back and take a read hard look at who the people here that have a right to take offense to all white man, blacks and immigrants.
Yes, the native Americans...
What was been done to them? Or do they just not count anymore for anything, because they are not an immigrant or came originally from some other country?...
How about giving back the land that they were swindled out of or was wrongly taken from.

No they won't go there. Too late for that now......
 

Castle-Yankee54

Celestial
It will continue on and on and on until they demand that Mt. Rushmore be dynamited because that too is offensive.

But maybe they should step back and take a read hard look at who the people here that have a right to take offense to all white man, blacks and immigrants.
Yes, the native Americans.

I believe it was in 1870 when the Lakota War Chief Crazy Horse went to the summit of Harney Peak which was sacred to the Lakota. He had a great vision of the future.......but since that time the white man has stolen almost all Lakota lands and desecrated many of them. So I think they have every right to be upset.....especially with the anniversary of Wounded Knee approaching.
 

erickson

Honorable
It will not end with this statue.
It will continue on and on and on until they demand that Mt. Rushmore be dynamited because that too is offensive.

There is a difference of course between the statues and Rushmore, which is located on Lakota land, both by its sacred nature and treaty. I would not be presumptuous and speak for them about what to do about it. But I would offer support.

At one time, Custer was proposed for the site.

Mount Rushmore | Native American Netroots
 
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Castle-Yankee54

Celestial
There is a difference of course between the statues and Rushmore, which is located on Lakota land, both by its sacred nature and treaty. I would not be presumptuous and speak for them about what to do about it.

Mount Rushmore was carved out of Harney Peak. I believe it was Lame Deer a Lakota Holy Man who pissed on the presidents heads in protest.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Another Dan Carlin Hardcore History reference. He suggested what it would be like to sit down and have a conversation with say, a first century Roman. Their views would be utterly alien to us, and ours to them. Why? Context of the society in which we live.

We can examine historical figures and make judgements but they change over time, which is why we're tearing down statues our recent ancestors put up. Fluid. We're not really passing judgement on some long dead person we're passing it on ourselves based on our current world view.
 

nivek

As Above So Below
Nancy Pelosi demands Republicans agree to remove 11 Confederate statues from Congress including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee as Donald Trump refuses to rename Army bases

Hours after President Trump said he woudn't be renaming military bases named for Confederate leaders, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi flaunted her opposition by highlighting her work to get Confederate statues in the U.S. Capitol removed.

Pelosi sent out a copy of a letter she had addressed to the chairs of the Joint Committee on the Library, which manages the National Statuary Hall collection - the 100 statues contributed by states that are on display in Statuary Hall and other places around the U.S. Capitol complex.

Each U.S. state gets to contribute two statues and there are currently 11 Confederate figures on display.

Pelosi called for their removal.

(more on the link)

CONFEDERATE STATUES ON CAPITOL HILL AND THE STATES THAT GIFTED THEM

Jefferson Davis - Mississippi

James Zachariah George - Mississippi

Wade Hampton - South Carolina

John E. Kenna - West Virginia

Gen. Robert E. Lee - Virginia

Uriah Milton Rose - Arkansas

Edmund Kirby Smith - Florida

Alexander Stephens - Georgia

Zebulon Vance - North Carolina

Joseph Wheeler - Alabama

Edward Douglass White - Louisiana

.
 

Sheltie

Fratty and out of touch.


Critically injured with a broken neck here in Virginia yesterday.
 
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