Alec Baldwin Accidentally Shoots and Kills Someone

Discussion in 'Present & Current Events' started by wwkirk, Oct 22, 2021.

  1. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    The reason I'm a bit 'on' about this is that around here it's common to hear legislators pick up on details that could potentially become law that make good sound bytes but are not based in reality. Banning specific calibers is something already done here.

    Here are four cartridges of virtually identical calibers. A 9mm is a .355 and a .38 Special or .357 Magnum are exactly the same bullet at .357 diameter. In that case the difference is the length of the cartridge case and amount of powder in it. Even though there is only a fraction of an inch difference in diameter the design and function a very different. I thought the pic made it evident.

    Left to right FMJ ball, 9mm expanding hollow points self defense, .357 self defense expanding hollow points and .357 soft lead with a partial copper jacket game load. All very different but virtually the same caliber - from a layman's p.o.v.
    upload_2021-10-27_8-10-51.png


    In .45 same exact thing below but here you can actually see the bullets themselves. The two on the left are .45 ACP ball and the two on the right are .45 Colt lead. Literally, a completely blind person could tell the difference between a cartridge loaded with a bullet and a blank that does not have one - hence the criminally negligent incompetence of the people responsible for the weapons on that set.

    The lead bullets on the right are hard cast, meaning a lead alloy designed so that they stay intact and not expand no matter how much gunpowder you put behind them with minimal lead streaking the lands and grooves of the barrel. Not intended for hunting. Inexpensive and great to target shooting, plinking etc. Very likely something of that sort killed the poor lady - likely to pass right through a person, especially a slightly built one. A 19th century revolver using a .45 Colt would be pure lead and loaded to a much lower velocity because the firearms couldn't take the pressure and pure lead comes apart with too much powder behind it. Get it just right and it does tremendous damage to a human body of any size.

    upload_2021-10-27_8-12-23.png

    A bullet is just the projectile, a loaded cartridge consists of a case + primer + powder + bullet. This shows the expended primer with a firing pin mark in it and how it fits into the case pocket. You can see the hole through which the explosion of the primer gets to the gunpowder in the case.

    upload_2021-10-27_8-23-41.png
     
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  2. AD1184

    AD1184 Noble

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    While that's true, people at times fall into modes of cognition that prevent them from seeing that they are doing something incorrectly. Sometimes it is improper to load live ammunition into a gun, and sometimes it is improper to load blanks into a gun. However, it is possible for some people, at least some of the time, to do the other thing in the opposite context. For example, the American actor Matthew Broderick visiting Ireland in the 1980s and driving on the wrong side of the road and killing the occupants of an oncoming vehicle (there was another incidence of this two years ago, where an American diplomat's wife killed a motorcyclist while driving on the wrong side of the road here in England). Broderick, and the diplomat's wife, would probably have been able to tell you correctly which side of the road they should have been driving on if you had asked them before their accidents, and to be able to tell the difference between left and right.

    I was flying gliders a lot a few years ago, and there is a standard checklist in British gliding that you recite prior to every take-off, remembered by the initialism CB SIFT CBE. That is, controls, ballast, seatbelts, instruments, flaps, trim, canopy, brakes, eventualities. You often hear pilots doing this verbally at the launch point. Most gliders do not have flaps, so typically when you get to flaps, you say 'not fitted', i.e. that checklist item is irrelevant. However, I overheard someone about to launch in a flapped glider (who was probably new to the type) going through the checklist, and he said "flaps, not fitted" before moving on. That would perhaps have been correct on the type that he was used to flying, but not on that particular day.

    When someone has learned doing something one way by repetition in a context in which it is appropriate, when they move to a new context in which it is not appropriate (like driving on the right side of the road in a country where you drive on the left, or loading live ammunition into a gun in use on a movie set), they might struggle to see anything wrong with it in the moment. If there is nobody else to check and point out that they are doing it wrong, then accidents can happen.
     
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  3. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I hear you and agree. My range benches have holes in the from 'unloaded' weapons. But don't believe that to be the case here. The kid just didn't have the experience to begin with. I just saw this: 'Rust' armorer caused Nicolas Cage to storm off set after firing gun

    Lots of crap circulating about this. I don't put much stock in these stories but this is undeniably her in the pic from that link. I can see three things, maybe four right off the bat that are being done incorrectly. The basic safety instruction at my club would point them out instantly. That young woman is playing at it and they let her and that's why the poor woman is dead.

    upload_2021-10-27_9-58-9.png
     
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  4. Rick Hunter

    Rick Hunter Celestial

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    Alec Baldwin is someone that should never touch a real firearm, as it is obvious he doesn't know anything about them. Otherwise he would have opened the cylinder and found live ammo. Instead he just took someone else's word that it was "safe" and then fired it at another person. That is not a criticism, just fact.
     
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  5. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I really have to step away from m PC and head to the gym, I'm getting a bit obsessed over this. It's bugging the snot out of me.

    I don't think an actor has to have firearm training beyond what an actual professional gives them in regard to that specific situation. The culpability is on the production company and their behavior. Say they employed gaffers who had little or no training and it caused a fire that killed someone, or electrocuted somebody. Same applies to the armorer. We'll probably find out there are rules in place that were not adhered to.

    Right now all we're hearing is salacious nonsense driven by the fact that the two women are attractive and the one has too many pics of herself posing with guns. Plus it's controversial Alec Baldwin - those Trump a******s are selling t-shirts. Ugh. I always say that the **** will come out in the wash eventually and I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter charges get leveled - and not at Baldwin. At a minimum the civil suits will be epic, and has been said, in his role as executive producer he might have a big problem. IDK.
     
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  6. Double Nought Spy

    Double Nought Spy Celestial

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    Thanks for your input here. I know enough about this stuff to know you have the clearest and most accurate comments on this mess that I've seen.

    There are all sorts of necessary rules and requirements in place for many different aspects of show bidness. One has to be certified in order to "fly" audio equipment, mostly big speakers, in a public area, but still people are killed by big heavy boxes falling on them while they enjoy a concert. It's rare, of course, but it shouldn't happen at all. It appears the Rust production was a third rate effort in many ways. At the moment, it seems to have set off droolers from every direction. Of course there are valid criticisms of many of the decisions and behaviors involved, but calm discussion of the reality isn't as sexy as the shit show that's going on around it.

    It still baffles me how anyone can be that careless with something so dangerous. Most people treat power tools with more respect than that.
     
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  7. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Santa Fe Sheriff reveals the type of gun involved in Alec Baldwin accidental shooting case

    The firearm that Alec Baldwin was holding when an accidental discharge resulted in the death of Halyna Hutchins was an F Lee Pietta long colt 45 revolver.

    "There was other ammunition in the gun that we believe was fired by Mr. Baldwin. As of right now there were three firearms that were located on the set within close proximity to the incident," Santa Fe County Sheriff Adan Mendoza said.

    .
     
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  8. Rick Hunter

    Rick Hunter Celestial

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    So, it was a reproduction and not an original gun.
     
  9. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Not unusual. Looks like a Single Action Army. Real Colts run in the thousands, even the ones of recent manufacture. Pietta and Uberti make the reproductions which run in the hundreds. Well, they used to - who the hell knows now. They are high quality and made of modern steel and it makes perfect sense to use them as they are indistinguishable from the originals. You drop it, break it so what.

    Nit picking, there is no 'Long Colt' just the .45 Colt like the stuff in the pics I posted above. I sold my Uberti 1873 Cattleman years ago. The same ammo is now used in a Pietta 1858 Remington cap & ball using a Howell 5 shot conversion cylinder.
     
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  10. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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  11. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Here's some of those reproduction weapons. Remember - they're Evil Incarnate. Quite likely to escape your safe and go kill somebody all by themselves and probably should be banned along with independent thought.

    Cowboy Action Shooting is quite a popular sport. I'm not into it but can appreciate it.

    Single Action Revolvers

    Cartridge Revolver
     
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  12. The shadow

    The shadow The shadow knows!

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  13. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    I have to disagree, after giving this ample thought I think charges of some sort must be levied upon every single person who had a hand on that weapon from the time it was loaded until it killed Halyna Hutchins...Baldwin should be charged, not only because of his role as a producer of the show and with that role having a higher level of responsibility for the safety in the set but he fired the shot...But when he took the gun in his hands the responsibility for that gun rests solely on him, he should never take anyone's word for it being loaded with blanks or not, he should have checked for himself and/or observed the individual loading the gun, instead of accepting the gun at word value that it was safe to shoot...Anyone holding a gun and firing it, whether it had blanks or live ammo, is responsible for the outcome of that shot fired IMO, even if it was an accident...

    ...
     
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  14. Rick Hunter

    Rick Hunter Celestial

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    I agree totally, but the prosecution is going to have a very steep grade to climb here. The shooting wasn't malicious and Baldwin has big money and celebrity on his side. Under the laws of my state the strongest charge they could reasonably be expected to prove is reckless homicide, a low level felony that's good for five years at the most. New Mexico is a poor state, and a celebrity criminal trial and inevitable appeals would cost millions and drag on for years. Maybe Baldwin or whoever gets charged would agree to take a community service/no jail time misdemeanor deal so both sides could save face a little bit.
     
  15. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Dunno. At a minimum an actor who has been on a set with weapons before should have noticed a difference in how they are handled. Can't say I've ever been on a movie set so I don't know. But the armorer and AD who declared it was a 'cold gun', they are in deep shit.

    And nobody on a real range says 'hot' or 'cold' or 'lukewarm'. It's something really obscure like SAFE and we step back from the bench or holster our weapons and keep our hands in plain sight.
     
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  16. Double Nought Spy

    Double Nought Spy Celestial

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    To me, it sounds like the typical air disaster. Lots of things happened that shouldn't have, but they did and without the other things happening too, they would have almost certainly been inconsequential. There is usually some glaring blunder at the middle of it though, which might have had no serious consequences without the other things. In that context, the armorer looks like the incompetent pilot. The more I read about her, the more I hope she is never again allowed on a movie set.
     
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  17. Rick Hunter

    Rick Hunter Celestial

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    The armorer or other non-celebrity personnel would be much lower hanging fruit for the prosecution, especially if someone testifies that they promised the gun was "safe" before the incident. Honestly, Baldwin strikes me as being so brainless that if he watched you put live ammo into the gun and then you told him it was safe, he would believe you wholeheartedly.
     
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  18. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Upset Alec speaks to photographers about cinematographer 'friend' tragically killed on Rust set - and snaps at Hilaria when she tries to talk after family emerges from hiding in Vermont

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    Alex Baldwin claimed the Rust cinematographer 'was my friend' and that he 'took her to dinner with the director' on the first day of shooting, as he and his wife stopped to talk to photographers in Vermont. Baldwin was with his wife Hilaria, who appeared to be filming the interaction, when the couple pulled over to talk to photographers in Manchester, Vermont. The couple spoke to the photographer for roughly four minutes where he claimed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, 42, was his friend. 'A woman died,' he exasperated. 'She was my friend, she was my friend.' 'The day I arrived in Santa Fe to start shooting, I took her to dinner with Joel, the director,' he said. 'We were a very, very well oiled crew shooting a film together and then this horrible event happened.'

    .
     
  19. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Just watched the end of Lost Crusade and thought that to some degree Sean Connerey and Harrison Ford seemed to know how to ride a horse. I don’t. Been enough movies with horses I guess. So you would think if they were on a movie set where horses were mishandled they might notice and say something. Horses can kill you if you’re not careful.

    Do I need to say the rest?
     
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  20. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    This isn't even bullshit, it's horseshit. Thing is, I have a family member who goes even further in her extreme opinions and has already convinced herself - wait for it - that a Trump supporter deliberately did this to get back at Alec Baldwin.

    I suppose the attorney's just doing his job. Badly. That young woman and the AD have a problem.

    Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's attorney suggests 'Rust' crew 'sabotaged' set

    ‘Rust’ armorer’s attorney suggests set possibly sabotaged by disgruntled crew member
    By Lee Brown November 3, 2021 8:35am
    Alec Baldwin’s fatal shooting of his cinematographer may have been the deadly result of a “disgruntled” crew member “sabotaging” the set, an attorney for the movie’s rookie armorer alleged Wednesday.

    Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, 24, loaded the gun Baldwin used on the set of “Rust” from a box of ammo that should have been only dummy rounds, her attorney, Jason Bowles, told the “Today” show.

    “We know there was a live round in a box of dummy rounds that shouldn’t have been there — at least one live round,” said Bowles, a former federal prosecutor.

    “We’re assuming somebody put the live round in that box — which, if you think about that, the person who put the live round in the box of dummy rounds had to have the purpose of sabotaging the set,” he claimed in the sensational interview.

    “There’s no other reason that you would do that — that you would mix that live round in with a dummy round,” he said.

    [​IMG]
    The attorneys for Hannah Gutierrez-Reed suggested on November 3, 2021, that their client was set up by disgruntled workers on the film “Rust” and given live rounds instead of dummy ones.
    TODAY show

    [​IMG]
    Alec Baldwin (second from left) and others from the film.
    Josh Hopkins/Instagram
    “I believe that somebody who would do that would want to sabotage the set, want to prove a point, want to say that they’re disgruntled, they’re unhappy.

    “And we know that people had already walked up to set the day before, and they had been and then they’re unhappy,” he said of the Western that had faced calls for strike action and a walkout by the camera crew.

    “That is the central question to this case … how did a live round get on set, and who put that live round on the set?” Bowles said.

    [​IMG]
    “Rust” assistant director Dave Halls had said the gun was “cold” and safe to use before giving it to Alec Baldwin.
    Dave halls/Twitter

    [​IMG]
    “Rust” was only the second armorer job for Hannah Gutierrez-Reed.
    Voices of the West/Facebook
    “You can’t rule anybody out at this point,” he insisted.

    Bowles also said there was at least two hours “in which the firearms at times were unattended” before Baldwin accidentally shot dead cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, a 42-year-old mom.

    “So there was opportunity to tamper with the scene,” Bowles said. “And yes, we’re looking at that possibility.”

    Fellow attorney Robert Gorence — also a former federal prosecutor — explained that while the guns were all “locked in a safe,” the prop ammo was in a truck that was “completely unattended at all times.”

    “Giving someone access and opportunity,” he stressed of the New Mexico set.

    The attorneys also insisted that Baldwin should never have fired the gun without the presence of his armorer, who was outside the church at the time, thinking they were only prepping the cameras.

    “If there was something that was going to involve one of the firearms, she had to be there,” Gorence said.

    “She wasn’t in the church because it wasn’t set up to have that dynamic of, ‘We’re going to use one of these firearms.’ The only tech prep was positioning cameras. She wasn’t there,” he said, calling it a “critical point.”

    Bowles also blamed movie bosses for Gutierrez-Reed — working only her second movie as head armorer — having “two roles on that film set.”

    “She was only being paid for an armorer part-time — essentially she was doing two roles,” he said, adding that Gutierrez-Reed was carrying out her “other duties as key props assistant” just before the deadly shooting.

    Gutierrez-Reed “remains very emotional,” Bowles said.

    “As you can imagine, coming on the scene and everything that she saw, she’s heartbroken, and she’s just devastated by what’s happened,” he said, insisting they are “definitely cooperating with the authorities.”

    Santa Fe District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies has also warned that “no one has been ruled out at this point … All options are on the table” in the investigation.

    That includes Baldwin, 63, who was also a producer of the movie that ended with the death of Hutchins and injury of director Joel Souza, officials said.

    [​IMG]
    Halyna Hutchins’ final Instagram post shows the cast and crew of “Rust.”
    Instagram / Halyna Hutchins

    [​IMG]
    Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was killed when a live round was fired from the gun while Alec Baldwin was rehearsing.
    SWEN STUDIOS/Handout via REUTERS
    Around 500 rounds were taken as part of the investigation, including blanks, dummy rounds — and some suspected live rounds, officials have said.

     
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