Aliens May Actually Be Billion-Year-Old Robots

Gambeir

Celestial
To paraphrase Barbara Tuchman; it isn't that history repeats itself, it's that circumstances enable history to repeat itself.

Criminologists know there is no identifiable socioeconomic differences to explain dynamically different outcomes in the reasoning of peoples minds, and thus their subsequent actions: This has been studied for over a hundred years.

In other words, it is the individuality (personal constitution) which decides what path an individual chooses, and no social, economic, or environmental factors seem to have any bearing at all upon this.

There is saying which goes: "No Gods, Nor Kings, only Predator and Prey."

Humanity is dividable in to two primarily different types. There is a majority which has a sense of right and wrong which we call morality in general, and then there are those whom have none that we call psychopaths.

I want to point out an important understanding about questioning assumptions. Our assumptions are formed by education and experiences; these can cross validate each other. A trick to human learning is to get the attention of the minds eye, so that it is focused on specifics, and then to have experiences validate those specific's. This is programming which creates existing ideas that are retained in the mind of the receiver: We call this learning.

Thus it is possible to manipulate what underlying assumptions are held in a given population. This is what is taking place right now. You can be sure it has a specific objective. If you believe the objective is give you eternal life then you're already a success story for the ruling elites.

This is to claim the kingdom of God. You should take careful note of that concept and ponder that idea deeply no matter whether you're an atheist or a self proclaimed soldier of God annoying people daily.

Now I'm going to assume we all want good things to happen, and that our own goals don't include becoming a willing part in a grand design of evil which results in mass murder, because history is full of well meaning people that ended up committing the most horrific acts, some still believing they were actually working for the well being of humankind.

I will promise you this much. None of these ideas are practical and even if they were there are great dangers, biblical like dangers, which are unacknowledged and not being given even the slightest notice or regard.

Eugenics is alive and well, and it is an un~acknowledged formal part of the ruling system we ourselves are living in today. It is a formalized part of the now industrialized educational prison matrix which was created to mold orderly bodies for use in warfare by the Prussian Army.

Controlling what you think you know and how you react to instructions has been methodically studied and applied scientifically to those ends ever since. Believe me, you're not doing your kid any favors sending them to those schools and the growing and frighting rise in the belief of this gigantic lie conjures up visions of the oven doors of Auschwitz Brikenau in my mind.

That's how truly dangerous this growing belief in technology is in my opinion, and it is enabled by the underlying assumptions about truth and that science reveals the truth and that this is all provable and scientific. The problem is, most people have no education at all, zero, in police science, criminal investigation, and probably very little dealing with evil incarnate as well. So science is just a tool and like all tools it is capable of being exploited for different ends by different minds. Do not under estimate the intelligence and creativity of an evil mind for that is what it prides itself the most upon. If you think this pathway cannot end in mass murder you would be dead wrong. I will bet my last dollar that is the objective.
 
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Gambeir

Celestial
All I'm trying to do here is to give you pause to think this through from another completely different angle which is one of evil and one of exploitation. The people ruling over us and our governments are the same ones whom rule over our education systems from the public schools to Universities, and they do not have your health in mind any more than a farmer does about the chickens he raises to slaughter, which brings up another problem from the perspective of these self appointed rulers, and that is what to do when there's too many chickens for them to manage.

See, in the old model we have wars and these are staged wars which fulfill the objectives of both culling and of enriching the pockets of the organizers. Who cares your kid is dead, you lost your legs, arms, or eyes, it's not about you, it's not about the pretext which caused the war in the first place, it's all about them and how they maintain rulership.

So what I'm trying to get across is that yes, they would love to have artificial intelligence like the robotic life forms that they have evidently found, but we are also talking about evil incarnate that's running the show! They do not think like you do~ nor do they care what you think.

My belief is that the whole idea here is that they know they cannot replicate these synthetic life forms they have evidently discovered, but there seems to be a two fold plan which is based around the knowledge that there may exist or does exist a synthetic life form which they have repackaged for sale to the unwitting.

These chicken farmers may have made a deal with the devil. Maybe they can use provided technology to download the essence of the mind in to a device where is kept for trading purposes, where that mind could then be placed in a machine, and with all machines they are ruled by programs and thus the mind becomes the artificial intelligence itself because it's now enslaved the same way animals are enslaved by instincts. There is no difference don't you see. That's the defining difference between animals and humans. Animals are ruled by instincts and computers are ruled by programs. Effectively one and the same except one is even more controlled than the other.

The whole business about making you super smart with chip implants is telling you something right there. Figure it out, they are farming us out is what this looking like to me.

I watched Battlestar Glactica as a kid so I see Lucifer.

Lucifer (1).jpg
 

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Black Angus

Honorable
Good and evil, right and wrong are human constructs.
They are relative. To a carnivore a rare steak with all the trimings is "good" to a vegan its bad.

Is the lion that eats an antelope while its still bleating in terror bad ?

There is a fundamental universal rule that transcends such questions.

Strieber asked his visitors what gives you the right to do this to me. the answer ?

The ability to do so...........

Its really that simple.
What gives us the right to turn animals into food ? the ability to do so
What gives us the right to strip the ocean of fish ?
To destroy the biosphere ?

Good and bad are relative and are constructs of mind,they are relative to the eye of the beholder.

One mans meat is another mans poison.

Its like Karma, its a mental construct. when you observe the reality "good" people suffer, while "bad" people do well and live lavish lifestyles.
The idea is designed to give you some sense of justice when none actually exists, who keeps tally ? By what mechanism to they ensure the bad karma gets re-payed, and the good karma gets rewarded ?

Lovely idea, but when you look at the reality thats all it can be.
 
I take the view that the brain/mind is either a machine or magic.
I think its easy to confuse a sufficiently complex machine for magic.

If its a machine it can be replicated. Not today, but how many eons did man look at the birds flying above before we started using supersonic aircraft
Y’know, I really love your passion and aspirations for reaching a higher plane of existence, and I relate to it very deeply. And I find your approach to it to be quite fascinating – as you know, I too have great aspirations for the realization of profound scientific advancements, and I too have great hopes for what they could mean to the fulfillment of our humanity.

So let’s discuss some key features of these issues that we’ve been debating, which I’m quite certain that you’re overlooking. And this is quite understandable, because what we’re about to discuss is correctly classified as esoteric knowledge. You can disregard this knowledge, but I will tell you right now: that would be a terrible mistake.

We’ll start with the simple stuff: biotechnology. Organic life, and specifically human organic life, is an exquisitely sophisticated manifestation of nanotechnology. That’s at least three orders of magnitude more intricate that today’s modern technology, such as microprocessors. “Micro” means “millionths,” and “nano” means billionths. The human brain and our other biotechnological systems are therefore properly understood as machinery at the atomic and molecular level. It doesn’t get any more sophisticated than that, because there’s no subatomic technology: the stable isotopes are the most stable fundamental building blocks of nature.

So it’s perfectly backwards to regard the organic technology which constitutes our minds and bodies, as inferior to the much clumsier and far more limited microtechnology of computers and all the rest of it. So any technology within human manufacturing capabilities right now and in the foreseeable future is, by definition, vastly inferior to the organic biotechnology that we’re made of. And it’s not simply a matter of scale either: the mindboggling ecosystems of enzymes and proteins and neural signaling processes and supremely adaptive molecular regeneration capabilities of organic life represent levels of sophistication so elaborate and sublime that we still have centuries of work to do before we can even ask all of the pertinent questions surrounding our own organic systems and genetics. It may even be eons before we fully grasp what we are and how it all works to produce the experience of an individual human being.

I’m not at all sure that you understand the beauty and sophistication of organic life, because the reverence for the concept “post-biological” seems to suggest that biological life is somehow inferior to the comparatively crude and macroscopic realm of microprocessors and wiring and programming and all of that stuff. In reality, the opposite is true: non-biological technology is to biotechnology, as Legos are to molecular engineering – primitive and inferior in every regard, except perhaps the fidelity of memory. And as I stated previously, it may well be that the fuzzy qualities of human memory may be a great benefit to us in ways which we rarely even consider. In other words, if a flawless memory were advantageous to us, then we would have it, because nanotech could certainly provide it if such a thing served us advantageously in the broader view.

Now let’s go deeper. Have you ever considered the possibility that consciousness is not actually localized in the brain? That perhaps consciousness is a field which pervades the entire universe, like gravity, and our brains are merely a kind of radio receiver for that field of consciousness? Because if that were true, then there would be no individual human consciousness, but instead a single cosmic field of consciousness, which our brain simply accesses to produce the experience of individual consciousness. In this interpretation the cosmic field of consciousness + the unique tuning of each human brain + its collection of memories = the experience of the individual self. It may seem like an odd idea from the prevailing reductionist view of reality today, but this model actually pervades the esoteric mysticism of ancient teachings from every region of the world dating back thousands of years.

Now we arrive at the part that the human ego revolts against – but this is the door to everything that truly matters, so I hope that you can resist the impulse to reject this notion, at least for a moment. We’re still asleep, you and I, right now. That stream of words and ideas flowing through your brain is a form of dreaming. When we climbed out of bed this morning, we only woke up halfway. So our lives are the lives of sleepwalkers, caught in the dreams of thought that we can neither stop nor really control. Our thoughts are our waking dream state. Chances are, you have not been fully awake since you were a very small child – at a young age, the unrelenting “stream of consciousness” of our mental conditioning kicked in, and it has never stopped through every half-waking moment of our lives.

It is possible but difficult to fully awaken from this dream of thought. It’s so difficult, in fact, that the few human beings who have awoken from the slavery of our thoughts, are legendary to us today: Buddha, Christ, Mohammed, Lao Tzo, Kabir, and most recently Krishnamurti. They awoke from the dream of thought. And many others, unknown to us, have as well, and so can you, and so can I.

What I’m getting at here is that the higher plane of consciousness and intelligence that you’re seeking through technological progress, is a potential within you that remains undiscovered, or rather, remains to be re-discovered. In that moment of awakening from the dream of thought, the truth and nature of our existence is laid bare.

So before we attempt to assess the true potential and significance of organic life, and to compare it with the promises of future technological advancements, first we should understand the full potential that’s already within us, waiting to be experienced with open eyes. I guarantee you that you will be stunned by what you find, and that it will fill you with unimaginable joy – the truth is far too wondrous to express with mere words.

Once you know what the hell I’m talking about, let’s discuss all of this again and see what you think about it, and we can ask these questions from a position of real understanding: “can the Greys help us in some way by preserving our minds and memories, or are they only helping themselves to something which is ours by birthright?” And “are we mortal, and can technology preserve what we are, or are we something transcendent already? And “can synthetic intelligence surpass our organic intelligence, and if so, in what sense?”

These are huge and important questions. But we can’t approach them with any hope of answering them properly, until we understand who and what we are. And, sadly, for the vast majority of us (probably some 99.99% of us or more), who and what we are remains a complete and undiscovered mystery. But understanding our real potential is vital if we are to ever understand the significance of exceeding that potential through technology or any other means.

I’m here to tell you that this secret potential need not remain a mystery, because nearly everyone on this planet has the latent capacity to personally experience a much higher state of consciousness than we’re experiencing right now – and this has been kept secret for reasons which will be self-evident to you if you unlock that inner door and walk through it.
 
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Gambeir

Celestial
Good and evil, right and wrong are human constructs.
They are relative. To a carnivore a rare steak with all the trimings is "good" to a vegan its bad.

Is the lion that eats an antelope while its still bleating in terror bad ?

There is a fundamental universal rule that transcends such questions.

Strieber asked his visitors what gives you the right to do this to me. the answer ?

The ability to do so...........

Its really that simple.
What gives us the right to turn animals into food ? the ability to do so
What gives us the right to strip the ocean of fish ?
To destroy the biosphere ?

Good and bad are relative and are constructs of mind,they are relative to the eye of the beholder.

One mans meat is another mans poison.

Its like Karma, its a mental construct. when you observe the reality "good" people suffer, while "bad" people do well and live lavish lifestyles.
The idea is designed to give you some sense of justice when none actually exists, who keeps tally ? By what mechanism to they ensure the bad karma gets re-payed, and the good karma gets rewarded ?

Lovely idea, but when you look at the reality thats all it can be.

Wrong dude, that's the reasoning of a psychopath: A person who is mentally outside the social order of civilized society, and that's why guns exist, why we have police, why we have laws and prisons and executions. All you're arguing is that might makes right and that so long as you're capable you're excused for your acts.

You're neither a house cat nor a tiger. Creatures which love and give love. Still these creatures are ruled by their instinctual programs. You have no such programs, though it seems like you're hell bent on finding out what a life ruled by instincts would be like, a fact you have continually ignored and obviously have no understanding of.

You have free will. A computer does not. A house cat does not and a Tiger does not. Wake up and pay attention or do you wish to encase yourself and others inside a stone forever until the eon's have turned that to dust as well?

You are misguided, on the wrong path, a dangerous path, and the thinking you're adopting is the sort of thinking which others have employed to try to excuse their actions as well. We live in civilized society for a reason, because we have free will is that reason and because we know there are people who have no conscience, whom will abduct and rape a child and then murder them and care not for one second what that means to anyone other than themselves. This is all you've argued for.

Nothing is excused, for you have the gift of God in your own hands, and that gift is free will, the ability to choose and to know right from wrong, and if you think there is no difference, if you think right and wrong are a simple matter of power than you are no more than a savage beast; for it is true that a tiger does not care what the sheep think, but the herd of sheep do care what the tiger thinks. So the sheep will find themselves a tiger killer and that will be the end of their problems till the next tiger comes along, and again the tiger killer will summoned.

You're quite right that concepts of good and evil are human constructs. The ability to define good and evil is what defines a human from an animal, as much as it defines a psychopath from the collective body which has emotional attachments to all life.
 
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Black Angus

Honorable
You know me, i dont subscribe to concepts that cant be tested and measured, anecdotal accounts of higher planes of consciousness in the metaphysical context just dont impress me.

Moments of deep insight are all very well, but for reasons i dont want to get into pedestrian to me.

“can the Greys help us in some way by preserving our minds and memories, or are they only helping themselves to something which is ours by birthright?

If they are simply lifting a copy of our experience sets before they wind up in oblivion anyway, is it stealing or conservation.
Our individual experience sets are unique, the rarest of all things in the universe imo.
Taking a copy at our inevitable end for posterity's sakes seems reasonable to me.

recording our minds is going to happen. we already have proof of concept.

Scientists learn how to record your dreams and play them back to you

This AI can see what you're thinking - and draw a picture of it

Futurists have predicted mind-reading technology for years. And while the detection of brain-wave patterns has been possible for decades, the missing ingredient was the ability to interpret them.

But now, thanks to artificial intelligence (A.I.) and machine learning, we can finally know what’s going on inside people’s minds.

Mind-reading tech is here (and more useful than you think!)

The rest is just a matter of resolution and sophistication.

If the grays want a copy of my mind, they are welcome to it.

Back to the OP:

If the strong Artificial Intelligence concept is correct,that is, if it is possible to construct AI with more
intelligence than biologicals, postbiological intelli-gence may take the form of AI. It has been argued
that humans themselves may become postbiologi-cal in this sense within a few generations (Moravec,
1988; Moravec, 1999). This may be optimistic (or pessimistic depending on your outlook). But if ETI
exists, and, as seems likely, it exceeds the age of ter-restrial technological civilization, we may already
live in a postbiological universe

http://www.setileague.org/iaaseti/abst2006/IAC-06-A4.2.01.pdf

CONCLUSION

In this brief piece, I’ve discussed why it is likely that the alien civilizations we encounter will be forms of superintelligent AI (or “SAI”). I then turned to the difficult question of how such creatures might think. I provisionally attempted to identify some goals and cognitive capacities likely to be possessed by superintelligent beings. I discuss Nick Bostrom’s recent book on superintelligence, which focuses on the genesis of SAI on Earth; as it happens, many of Bostrom’s observations were informative in the present context [7]. Finally, I isolated a specific type of superintelligence that is of particular import in the context of alien superintelligence, biologically-inspired superintelligences (“BISAs”). I urged that if any superintelligences we encounter are BISAs, certain work in computational neuroscience, cognitive neuroscience and philosophy of mind may provide resources for at least a rough understanding of the computations of BISAs.

The Search for Extraterrestrial Life and Post-Biological Intelligence

(this link above, is an absolute treasute trove for those interest in this subject)
 

Black Angus

Honorable
Wrong dude, that's the reasoning of a psychopath: A person who is mentally outside the social order of civilized society, and that's why guns exist, why we have police, why we have laws and prisons and executions. All you're arguing is that might makes right and that so long as you're capable you're excused for your acts.

You're neither a house cat nor a tiger. Creatures which love and give love. Still these creatures are ruled by their instinctual programs. You have no such programs, though it seems like you're hell bent on finding out what a life ruled by instincts would be like, a fact you have continually ignored and obviously have no understanding of.

You have free will. A computer does not. A house cat does not and a Tiger does not. Wake up and pay attention or do you wish to encase yourself and others inside a stone forever until the eon's have turned that to dust as well?

You are misguided, on the wrong path, a dangerous path, and the thinking you're adopting is the sort of thinking which others have employed to try to excuse their actions as well. We live in civilized society for a reason, because we have free will is that reason and because we know there are people who have no conscience, whom will abduct and rape a child and then murder them and care not for one second what that means to anyone other than themselves. This is all you've argued for.

Nothing is excused, for you have the gift of God in your own hands, and that gift is free will, the ability to choose and to know right from wrong, and if you think there is no difference, if you think right and wrong are a simple matter of power than you are no more than a savage beast; for it is true that a tiger does not care what the sheep think, but the herd of sheep do care what the tiger thinks. So the sheep will find themselves a tiger killer and that will be the end of their problems till the next tiger comes along, and again the tiger killer will summoned.

I am everything you say, and i say you are wrong with the same conviction you say i am
(see what i did there ?)

Does Evil Exist? Neuroscientists Say No.

I don't believe in supernatural beings or mechanisms, i see the universe as one large machine nothing more.

I cant argue that might makes right, since i dont subscribe to the concept of right in your classical sense.
I cant nor do i need to be excused, since i can do no wrong. (or right).


Wrong is relative to the observer. as is right.

Whats right to one observer is wrong to another and visa versa.

They cannot be measured and defined, thus i dispense with them as concepts.

I am neither sinner nor saint. I just am.

Moral nihilism - Wikipedia

Does my free will include being able to chose to be a Moral Nihilist ?

The nature of morality : an introduction to ethics (Book, 1977) [WorldCat.org]
 
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Black Angus

Honorable
ABSTRACT

We consider the biological provincialism of traditional SETI, and why there are good arguments for thinking that the bulk of the intelligence in the cosmos is synthetic. Given this possibility, the SETI community should consider how to conduct a meaningful search for intelligence that is not constrained to habitable worlds. To that end, we consider some of the factors that might govern the behavior of highly advanced, cognitive machinery and some strategies that might aid in the discovery of same.

THE ANTHROPOCENTRIC BIAS

The premise of most SETI experiments, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, was established with Frank Drake’s pioneering Project Ozma more than five decades ago [1]. Today’s efforts differ in scale, but not in approach: Their strategy is to seek signals produced by cosmic inhabitants whose level of technology is at least as advanced as our own.

For more than two decades, SETI has been largely underwritten by private donations, and because of this the scientists involved are often pressured to make some estimate of the chances of success. To this end, they will frequently invoke the well-known Drake Equation which quantifies the number of galactic societies currently producing detectable signals. If some estimate of the prevalence of transmitting sources can be made, then a timescale for SETI success can also be made.

Unfortunately, the value of many of the parameters of this equation are still unknown, and the few for which new data have recently become available are little changed from the estimates made when the equation was first written. The Drake Equation, while ubiquitous and helpful in formulating the problem of SETI, does little to determine the odds for any particular experiment.

Of possibly greater importance is the Equation’s influence in setting strategy. It assumes that SETI will succeed only if there are at least a few thousand technically accomplished civilizations resident in the Milky Way. Detectable societies are assumed to consist of a large number of individuals, resident on a planet that’s not only amenable to life but also able to beget and sustain complex organisms. In other words, a world analogous to our own.

That view hasn’t changed in a half century. New thinking on how to conduct SETI has been less about the nature of the beings we seek or their habitat, and more about their presumed behavior.

As example, a matter of popular discussion is whether signals from extraterrestrials are more likely to be deliberate beacons, or accidental leakage. This discussion is largely motivated by the trend in our own society to shift to higher efficiency communication modes (e.g., direct satellites and fiber optics in place of traditional broadcasting.) This change has led many to opine that advanced civilizations will be economical, and not generate significant leakage. However, while this argument sounds plausible, there’s no denying that it is highly parochial, and based on human experience a scant century after the invention of practical radio and lasers. And even this modest speculation on the conduct of extraterrestrials – they will be more efficient users of energy than we are – has had little impact on SETI experiments.

In fact, experiments do what they are able, and are mostly indifferent to whether the signal being sought is intentional or otherwise. SETI today continues to adopt the playbooks of the past: the aliens are analogous to us, only more advanced. The circumstances of their environment are also presumed to be similar to ours.

Unsurprisingly then, SETI practitioners have been heartened by recent discoveries of exoplanets. The good news is that worlds akin to our own could exist in great abundance. Current estimates are that between 0.1 and 0.2 of all star systems host an Earth-size planet in the habitable zone [2]. This implies that tens of billions of these favored locales pepper the Galaxy.

But there is also bad news. At a time when the prospects for beings comparable to ourselves are improving, there is a slow-growing realization that biological intelligence may be only a short-lived – and possibly cryptic – stepping stone to the real thinkers of the cosmos: synthetic intelligence.

PROSPECTS FOR SYNTHETIC INTELLIGENCE

If researchers in the field of artificial intelligence (AI) are to be believed, we will invent machines that are our cognitive equals by mid-century. Roboticist Hans Moravec has pointed out that the exponential improvement in digital electronics will produce workaday computers with reckoning power comparable to a human brain in less than a decade’s time [3]. This rapid betterment in computation has led some, such as Vernor Vinge and Ray Kurzweil, to predict a future time – the “singularity” – at which our own intellectual capacities will be swamped by that of our devices [4],[5].

Of course, there are already machines that can outperform the human brain in tasks generally regarded as “intelligent.” The best chess playing computer can beat the best grand master, and the recent triumph of IBM’s Watson computer against seasoned contestants on a television quiz show attracted widespread attention, if not admiration. More recently, Google’s AlphaGo software beat a world expert human at the game of Go, one that is considerably more complex than chess. But as AI entrepreneur Peter Voss has noted, these attainments merely point up the current situation in which one can either build a machine that is excellent at a narrowly scoped task (e.g., chess) or one that is quite mediocre at many things [6]. In order to challenge the intellectual abilities of humans, what’s required is what is termed GAI – generalized artificial intelligence.

It is not the intent of this essay to either review or critique developments in AI research, but rather to assume that GAG machines will appear – if not in this century, then in the next. The timing is of little consequence to the implications for SETI. But the events following this development are straightforward:

1. If our own example can be taken as typical, then GAI quickly follows on the heels of radio technology – within a few centuries.

2. There is no reason to believe that the evolution of “wet ware” – augmentations of our own brains – can keep pace with GAI.

3. Because artificial intelligence can quickly evolve (by its own design), it will soon outstrip the cognitive capability of biological beings.

4. Artificial intelligence will be self-repairing, and therefore of indefinite lifetime.

5. GAI will be the dominant form of intelligence for any society that has progressed even slightly beyond the point of being able to send signals into space.

6. Unlike biology, which has been “engineered” bottom-up, GAI will be engineered top-down. We cannot hope to forecast what talents or interests it will have, but the one aspect of its functionality that seems safe to assume is survival. This sounds Darwinian, and therefore biological, but is essential if we are to find GAI now, billions of years into the history of the cosmos.

The bottom line is simple, if disquieting: biological brains will beget synthetic ones. If this technical evolution is commonplace, then there’s reason to expect that the majority of the intelligence in the universe is non-biological. This intelligence would not be dependent on water worlds, atmospheres, or planets at all. Consequently the premise of most SETI – that we should expect to find signals from old, habitable worlds – could be wide of the mark [7],[8].

It seems probable that the future of our hunt for extraterrestrials will require more than just new equipment. We’ll need to rethink what it is we seek.

SO HOW DO WE FIND IT?

Adapting our SETI strategies to the challenge of uncovering GAI may sound simple at first. Nothing more is required than to put less emphasis on targeting habitable planets, or even individual stars, and simply scan as much of the sky as possible. However, there may be opportunities to increase our chances of success by augmenting this simple, brute-force approach with insights about the likely nature or behavior of synthetic intelligence.

First, we are probably well advised to avoid hubris. There may be little we can fathom about the nature of artificial intelligence that might be the result of millions of generations of self-improvement – improvement not predicated on the slight and random modifications of Darwin, but directed changes. Such intelligence will surely be as superior to us as we are to the nematodes in the garden. Consequently, we should not feel too sure about our speculations as to what AGI might do or how it might be detected. Imaginative ideas about the interests and activities of synthetic beings are plentiful in fiction, but these ideas are vulnerable to anthropocentric bias.

However, there are at least a few aspects of GAI that seem less suspect:

1. Assuming that for such machines more computation is better, they can be expected to prefer locations with abundant energy and an effective heat sink. The former suggests the neighborhoods of early-type stars or black holes (either of the stellar variety or the massive objects hunkered at the centers of galaxies.) It’s been suggested that the outer regions of galaxies might be preferred locales for such machines because of their slightly lower temperatures, resulting in greater thermal efficiency [9]. However, given that the efficiency depends only on a temperature ratio between source and sink, this argument is of significance only if the energy source is no more than a few hundred degrees, as space is cold almost everywhere.

2. The short timescales for self-improvement may set up a “winner take all” situation. Whatever machine first appears in a given part of the cosmos could endlessly trump others that arise, since even a cosmically short period of time is a great number of GAI generations, and the new kids on the block could never catch up.

3. Given the dangers present in the universe, a machine might wish to buy insurance in the form of backup machines. These could be kept at a distance that would minimize simultaneous annihilation, but linked to the mother machine so that updates could be continually offered. Detecting this telemetry might offer a way to discover GAI, although one can assume that the communication would be point to point and unlikely to be intercepted with our instruments.

4. Another possible organization scheme for GAI might be hierarchical. Social systems might make sense if the increase of information in a machine eventually becomes small compared to the timescale for interaction with other machines (the light travel time between them). In other words, if the new capability acquired per year by a GAI eventually becomes a very small fraction of the previously accumulated capability, then interchanging information makes sense, since that information is not rendered obsolete and irrelevant in the time it takes to effect the exchange.

5. Whether intelligent machines would have any interest in broadcasting (as opposed to point-to-point telemetry) is impossible to know. One metric for intelligence is the ability to foresee danger and avoid it. The cleverest GAI, by this measure, might be less concerned about revealing their presence with easily found signals. They might also wish to communicate with other such machines that are largely outside their light cone, as these would have information that they could not obtain otherwise [10].

These considerations offer a few plausible arguments as to where we should look for GAI. However, they promise little in terms of assuring SETI scientists that such machines would have any motive to make themselves known.

In the case of biological beings, we can safely assume the presence of curiosity, as this trait is necessary to divine the laws of nature and build transmitters we could find. But artificial sentience might not share this type of curiosity. Maybe after solving all the puzzles of science, GAI would be happy to indulge itself with endless entertainments – perhaps with Bostrom-like simulations [11]. If they are capable of self-repair (an assumption in all of the above), then it may be that their primary project is to forestall the heat death of the universe and an end to their own existence.

CONCLUSIONS

What might SETI practitioners do to increase their chances of detecting what is likely to be the most prevalent form of intelligence in the cosmos? Unfortunately, the list is short.

A search for unusual phenomena in the vicinity of high-density energy sources is a straightforward desideratum. Another is to consider that the oldest of such machines might wish to contact their peers in other parts of the cosmos to compare notes and offer novel information. This suggests an experiment in which SETI searches for signals (radio or optical) in the direction of stellar black holes or quasars that are antipodal. E.g., two stellar black holes on opposite sides of the sky might conceivably host AGI whose beamed data would pass through our neighborhood.

Perhaps the best strategy to find the universe’s intellectual giants is the least deliberate: simply be careful to note any unusual phenomena uncovered in the course of astronomical research. Are there nebulae with anomalous, depleted deuterium? Do some stars or galaxies display unnatural infrared excess, a possible tipoff to energy-intensive residents [12],[13]? Are there cosmological behaviors without natural explanation?

It is easy to design an experiment to find the aliens of sci-fi, for these are robustly similar to ourselves. But when you don’t know your prey, the hunt can be hard.

REFERENCES

[1] Drake, F. 1960, “How can we detect radio transmissions from distant planetary systems,”Sky and Telescope 39, 140

[2] Petigura, E. A., Howard, A. W., and Marcy, G. W. 2013, “Prevalence of Earth-size planets orbiting Sun-like stars,” PNAS, 110, No. 48, 19273

[3] Moravec, Hans 2000, Robot: Mere Machine to Transcendent Mind, Oxford

University Press (Oxford)

[4] Vinge, V. 1993 “The coming technological singularity,” Vision-21:

Interdisciplinary Science & Engineering in the Era of CyberSpace, proceedings of a Symposium

held at NASA Lewis Research Center (NASA Conference Publication CP-10129)

[5] Kurzweil, Ray 2005, The Singularity is Near, Viking Penguin (New York)

[6] Voss, Peter 2015, agi3 - AGI Innovations Inc |Technology

[7] Shostak, S. 1998, Sharing the Universe, Berkeley Hills Books (Berkeley)

[8] Shostak, S. 2011, “Seeking intelligence far beyond our own,” International Astronautics Congress, IAC-11.A4.2.4

[9] Cirkovic, M. M. and Bradbury, R.J. 2006, “Galactic gradients, postbiological evolution, and the apparent failure of SETI,” New Astronomy, 11, 628

[10] Windell, Alex Noholoa 2015, private communication

[11] Bostrom, N. 2003, Philosophical Quarterly, 53 No. 211, 243

[12] Carrigan, R. 2009, “The IRAS-based whole-sky upper limit on Dyson spheres,” Ap. J.698 2075

[13] Griffith, R. L., Wright, J. T., Maldonado, J., Povich, M. S., Sigurdsson, S., Mullan, B. 2015, “The Ĝ Infrared Search for Extraterrestrial Civilizations with Large Energy Supplies. III. The Reddest Extended Sources in WISE,” arXiv:1504.03418 [astro-ph.GA]
 

Black Angus

Honorable
I’m not at all sure that you understand the beauty and sophistication of organic life, because the reverence for the concept “post-biological” seems to suggest that biological life is somehow inferior

No i am fascinated by the chimpanzee and the Bonobo, we are just more sophisticated than they are in the same way SI will be more sophisticated than us.

And if ET is postbiological it would no doubt look at us the way we do Chimps (we still eat them too as bushmeat)
http://www.conservenature.org/learn_about_wildlife/chimpanzees/chimp_bushmeat.htm

Thats where i am looking at this from. If ET's are postbiological as the OP suggests and others including SETI are now speculating. How might they see us ?. And does that give us any insight into the observed behaviour of them as documented in this genre.

There does seem to be some parallel between how they allegedly treat us, and how we treat chimps............
 

Black Angus

Honorable
W
Well the fact that you keep citing these supposed authorities tells me you're brainwashed from the get got, but why you would think for one second that, of all people, a neuroscientist ~ who could be anyone~ is qualified to determine such a topic?

That's not even logical dude. You're not listening at all, none...zip...hello? You're about to get me to push the ignore button ya know that?

You're not discussing, your trying to sell an idea that's being totally rejected and refuted in every way! I'm sorry you don't like it, but you don't know half of what you obviously think you know. That's all, and hell I've been there, the difference is that I've been through it so many times that now I just start off knowing that I don't know.

OK, so there's only a couple things I really do know about. One is evil, I'm an expert in evil, I have a degree in evil, I'm a certified expert in detecting evil, OK, well maybe not expert, but a minor at least.

So please, stop because you're pissing me off with bullshit that's evil. That's why I'm on you. You're not seeing that is the issue. You're not listening to me or anyone else. You're crusading and that right there proves you've been hijacked by evil. Only crusaders work for evil. The only thing evil likes more than sex is fool good in to doing evil, and that's what's happened to you. You want to do good, you think this is good, and now you have this asshole telling you that you're wrong and that what you're doing is evil.

OK, I understand it's pissing you off, but you're pissing me off just as much, we are pissing each other off then. Smile.

Now then, who cares what a nincompoop ninny thinks just because he's got a PHD in neuroscience. What, you think men like him haven't also seen the inside of a gas chamber, the north end of 38 special, or the knot of the hangman's noose? They have and I wouldn't be surprised if that's where this jackass ends up at.

Why would i be pissed off, you have done nothing wrong by my definition.

I suggest you have a good read of this link

Moral nihilism - Wikipedia

Why is your view of right, superior to mine ?
 

Black Angus

Honorable
A pity, i find absolutes locked in stone with no scope for debate mental dead ends.
I'd say its all good, but well.... you know.......

Back to topic

What if we really do live in a post-biological universe, or at least a post-biological galaxy, inhabited by extraordinarily smart machines? What if their capacity to sense, diagnose, calculate, think, choose, and communicate exceeds the vision of most scientists and engineers today? What if their age, perspective, knowledge, wisdom, culture, technology, and intelligence have advanced thousands or millions of years beyond our own?

The concept of a post-biological universe certainly does seem reasonable. It fits within the bounds of today's logic, science, and engineering, at least if they are extrapolated a few decades into the future. It is supported by some highly competent scientists. It could occur from a dazzling array of civilizations arising independently, but it could also arise from just one or two long-lived civilizations gradually spreading throughout a galaxy. A map of the galaxy might show widely scattered pockets of intelligence communicating with one another across vast expanses of space, or it might show those spaces contain many intelligent relay stations and interstellar probes. All in all, it certainly seems quite likely, or at least quite possible, that we live in a post-biological galaxy.

Several major implications immediately arise for the SETI field. These implications are wide-ranging, profound, unsettling, deeply transformative, challenging, exciting, exhilarating.

Invitation to ETI: Post-biological Implications for SETI


These implications are wide-ranging, profound, unsettling, deeply transformative, challenging, exciting, exhilarating.

Indeed they are to me too, when i compare the narrative of ET'sH visitation as documented by our species, i find that the PBH (Post biological Hypothesis) answers a lot of questions, and creates lots more.

This is my primary area of interest in the ET'sH enigma, i pursue it for the same reason SETI and others now do. I think its the logical path to follow for good answers.

But i also understand that where i see transformative, exciting and exhilarating, for others its unsettling and challenging.

Like the sound of one hand clapping , it is what it is, nothing more, nothing less.....
 
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You know me, i dont subscribe to concepts that cant be tested and measured, anecdotal accounts of higher planes of consciousness in the metaphysical context just dont impress me.
How can a state of consciousness be tested and measured? It can't; it can only be experienced. And either all states of consciousness are metaphysical, or none are, so there's nothing any more metaphysical about a different state of consciousness than there is about this one.

To properly assess the significance of the data regarding any topic, we have to weigh the evidence that we can reasonably expect to acquire about the subject of interest, against the evidence available.

This is a central feature of the debate about the ETH which many people completely fail to grasp when they assert "there's no evidence of any alien life, therefore we don't need to take the subject seriously." That's a logical error. Because we don't have the means to detect alien life on distant worlds, or even entire alien civilizations upon distant exosolar worlds. Therefore, the absence of that evidence is totally meaningless. Or as Uncle Stanton loves to say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

The same logic applies to states of human consciousness, because a state of consciousness cannot be experimentally measured at this time, so the absence of empirical evidence is meaningless. So a proper evaluation requires other methodologies. Inference, for example: we know that dreaming is a state of consciousness because we all experience it. That's one state of consciousness. We know that our waking state of consciousness also exists. That's two states of consciousness. We know that death is real, and we assume that it's a zero state of consciousness. And we know that the dreamless state of stage 5 sleep is real, and different than death, so that's a third state of consciousness. Plus we're aware of various drug-induced states of altered consciousness, so we know that there are more than four distinct states of consciousness. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that there are other states of consciousness as well. And when we look, we find explicit methods for achieving a specific state of consciousness in clear and practical mystical texts spanning many eons and cultures, which just so happen to describe this state in equivalent terminologies.

I would further argue that the stream of consciousness that we experience in daily life is in fact an undeniably dream-like state which places our current state of consciousness on similar footing as the sleeping dream state. Both are autonomic and largely uncontrolled processes, and in both cases we are incapable of stopping them at will. Interestingly, it is said that if one can halt the process of verbal thought in the mind for 44 consecutive seconds, then one will experience the state of full wakefulness, because the thought cycle is broken by a time interval of that duration.

That's all I'm going to say about this here. You can make up your own mind - I have no interest in trying to convince anyone about this. I just felt obligated to mention it because I think it's something important that you've missed. And I also think it's important to understand the full extent of human conscious potentiality in the absence of technological enhancement, before we can properly assess the value of any proposed technological approaches to enhancement.

But yes, I do agree that it's quite likely that many if not most of the unexplained aerial devices navigating our airspace from time to time, probably involve synthetic intelligence. I'm just less convinced that they're more conscious than we humans can be, once we realize our full potential. I tend to think that they're simply a very different form of intelligence, which is superior in some ways, but perhaps at best as conscious as we're capable of being using the incredibly sophisticated organic biotechnology granted to us via 5 billion years of evolutionary processes.

I also very much doubt that they're here to help us. All creatures great and small (and most probably both organic and inorganic) are primarily driven by their own self--interest. So I assume that their relationship with us is parasitic, at best.
 
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Black Angus

Honorable
How can a state of consciousness be tested and measured

There are two ways of defining consciousness as articulated by David Chalmers (Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness) in a dichotomy generally accepted by most philosophers and cognitive scientists.

In the easy problem of consciousness we talk about consciousness in terms of colloquial understandings of the term, e.g., executive function, self-awareness, wakefulness, sensation, self-report, deliberate control of behavior and so on. For example, getting knocked unconscious involves loss of a specific set of functions.

This can be measured in any number of ways by measuring the brain activity associated with these different cognitive abilities or states. A general method in neuroscience and fMRI is to use the Subtraction Method: Measure someone's brain activity (hemodynamic response) when they're conscious or doing some conscious activity, then measure it when they're unconscious. Subtract B from A and your result is consciousness.

These cognitive functions aren't unitary phenomena in most cases, and so it's actually quite complicated, but it's theoretically possible in principle. This is, as I understand it, what folks like Christof Koch seem to care about in hypothesizing that consciousness is essentially emergent from top-down processing; that we can compare consciousness cross species by comparing top-down neural connectivity and function.

This is different than measuring the hard problem of consciousness, which refers to the subjective experience of experiencing.

Thus it can be tested and measured, defining what constitutes it is a different story. But it can be tested and measured
 

Black Angus

Honorable
People have always held a biased view of the world around them. It?s an aspect of being human.

It took until the 17th century for us to reject Aristotle's vision of a universe where our sun and the stars revolved around the Earth. Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) senior astronomer Seth Shostak points out that up until a century ago, the scientific community believed a vast engineering society was responsible for building an irrigation system on the surface of Mars.




In his upcoming paper "What E.T. will look like and why should we care?" for the November-December issue of Acta Astronautica, Shostak argues that SETI might be more successful if it shifts the search away from biology and focuses squarely on artificial intelligence.

Shostak sees a clear distinction between life and intelligence: he says we should be searching for extraterrestrial machines.

Looking for E.T.? Try His Artificial Intelligence Instead, Astronomer Says
 
There are two ways of defining consciousness as articulated by David Chalmers (Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness) in a dichotomy generally accepted by most philosophers and cognitive scientists.

In the easy problem of consciousness we talk about consciousness in terms of colloquial understandings of the term, e.g., executive function, self-awareness, wakefulness, sensation, self-report, deliberate control of behavior and so on. For example, getting knocked unconscious involves loss of a specific set of functions.

This can be measured in any number of ways by measuring the brain activity associated with these different cognitive abilities or states. A general method in neuroscience and fMRI is to use the Subtraction Method: Measure someone's brain activity (hemodynamic response) when they're conscious or doing some conscious activity, then measure it when they're unconscious. Subtract B from A and your result is consciousness.

These cognitive functions aren't unitary phenomena in most cases, and so it's actually quite complicated, but it's theoretically possible in principle. This is, as I understand it, what folks like Christof Koch seem to care about in hypothesizing that consciousness is essentially emergent from top-down processing; that we can compare consciousness cross species by comparing top-down neural connectivity and function.

This is different than measuring the hard problem of consciousness, which refers to the subjective experience of experiencing.

Thus it can be tested and measured, defining what constitutes it is a different story. But it can be tested and measured
Yeah I've followed David Chalmers for years - very bright guy. You're talking about secondary effects, which are indirect, and those have been measured. Yogis for example have demonstrated abilities like dramatically changing their heart rate and brain waves and such. As far as I know, nobody ran an MRI on Krishnamurti before he died in 1986. I wonder what they might've found if they'd done that. I dunno if looking at somebody's MRI could give any indications about their state of consciousness, ordinary vs true wakefulness - I would expect there to be some differences, but I think that the interpretation of those differences would be highly subjective at this point.

We don't have an instrument that can gauge your level of consciousness, aside from obvious differences like conscious vs the unconscious state. MRI just picks up blood flow, and it's probably overly simplistic to think that a full waking state would involve greater blood flow. But I bet they could see a key feature of the fully wakeful state: the ability to stop and start the thought process at will. As far as I know, nobody's tried to do MRI tests on an awakened individual yet, so it's not a science at this point. But it probably will become one eventually. We're not there yet though, afaik.

It's a real thing though, so science will catch on to it eventually. I wish I knew of an awakened avatar alive today, but I don't. For most people who experience it, it happens spontaneously either during or after mediation, and it only lasts 15-20 minutes in most cases, which poses an insurmountable experimental challenge.
 

Gambeir

Celestial
Yes, History is full of example like yours

Matthew Hopkins - Wikipedia

Burning little old ladies at the stake because their pov was different to yours.



I've always said that when your passion begins to harm others you need to stop what you're doing.
You have a valid point and fair point.

I jumped and bit you like the zealous guard dog I was trained to be, and for that I'm sorry because more than a few people wasted no time in letting me know I was nipping the wrong prowler, that you weren't actually a prowler, but rather an invited resident.

Everyone has a passion that drives them. You're's is AI and I now understand that. Through you I have gotten a new perspective on my own passions. I see my own passion for integrity and truth as potentially an equally dangerous and harmful quest if taken to extremes, and as you've shown history has that same warning for me.

The issue for me isn't the technology, the dream, which I think is wonderful and worthy. For example I know from experience that paralysis would make anyone try anything, and if this technology can relieve or cure that, then it has to be developed and of course it will be no matter whether I oppose it or a million more just like me also oppose it.

In truth though and in retrospect, I have to say that what it has to offer is a path we must at least follow until or unless it begins to lead elsewhere. Evidently Universe wants us to have this, to have experience with it at least, and I know that opposing the wishes of Universe is a fools errand.
 

Ron67

Ignorance isn’t bliss!
I've always said that when your passion begins to harm others you need to stop what you're doing.
You have a valid point and fair point.

I jumped and bit you like the zealous guard dog I was trained to be, and for that I'm sorry because more than a few people wasted no time in letting me know I was nipping the wrong prowler, that you weren't actually a prowler, but rather an invited resident.

Everyone has a passion that drives them. You're's is AI and I now understand that. Through you I have gotten a new perspective on my own passions. I see my own passion for integrity and truth as potentially an equally dangerous and harmful quest if taken to extremes, and as you've shown history has that same warning for me.

The issue for me isn't the technology, the dream, which I think is wonderful and worthy. For example I know from experience that paralysis would make anyone try anything, and if this technology can relieve or cure that, then it has to be developed and of course it will be no matter whether I oppose it or a million more just like me also oppose it.

In truth though and in retrospect, I have to say that what it has to offer is a path we must at least follow until or unless it begins to lead elsewhere. Evidently Universe wants us to have this, to have experience with it at least, and I know that opposing the wishes of Universe is a fools errand.
Great post I admire your maturity.Im here to learn because I am ignorant in so many ways,I disagree with lots of things but also find I learn something new from those I disagree with.Its attitudes like yours that makes this forum so good.
 

Wade

Stare..... They are always staring
And I admire a person whose not afraid to admit to a little shortcomings in a area even though he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He knows more than I do, but i am curious about many things and to me is a wonderful "burden"

I do wonder any chance that HAN from the Paracast is on this forum?
 

Shadowprophet

Truthiness
Now This is just me. When I think of Robots. I'm thinking metal and circuits and wires. I am fully on board with the concept that some of the greys if not most of the greys and other extraterrestrials are biological drones, or even avatars or vessels if you will. That contains the consciousness of the being controlling it. My thing is, I feel like. When we talk about technology we tend to think of construction and electronic engineering. But what if. These beings are so advanced that they are able to just manufacture these bodies, Like the greys. inhabit them and use them while they conduct their various businesses here on earth. Think about it guys. If a race of beings is truly that advanced. Why would they want to build something from the electronic age? I believe they, at least for some beings. Creating a custom body that is suited to the environment, Would be easy. I think the reason we see Greys of various shapes and sizes is simply a preference they chose in that Vehicle/avatar/body I would assume when the greys explore other planets or even other areas here on earth. they assume different forms. for instance. If they are so many millions of years more advanced then we. Then they probably know more about our own ocean floors then we do. I would assume if they wanted to explore the oceans. they would take a form similar to aquatic life.

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