Arguments Against ETH

Kchoo

At Peace.
There was an incident aboard a craft where we slowly flew through a solid object, and on the craft it was like it didn’t really exist, like passing through a virtual image... quantum shift?
Or just a whacky dream? Always doubt in these scenarios, but on the chance that it was real, and. Think it was...

quantum shift?
 

nivek

As Above So Below
There was an incident aboard a craft where we slowly flew through a solid object, and on the craft it was like it didn’t really exist, like passing through a virtual image... quantum shift?
Or just a whacky dream? Always doubt in these scenarios, but on the chance that it was real, and. Think it was...

quantum shift?

Quite a bit off topic posting dreams in this thread...

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Kchoo

At Peace.
Quite a bit off topic posting dreams in this thread...

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You dont give any credit to the possibility that it is more than a dream? I would hope this adds value to consider the question based on what is observed, as many of the topics we discuss are subject to doubt, but also may have merit... where to draw the line on that seems to be the question.
 

nivek

As Above So Below
You dont give any credit to the possibility that it is more than a dream? I would hope this adds value to consider the question based on what is observed, as many of the topics we discuss are subject to doubt, but also may have merit... where to draw the line on that seems to be the question.

You are the one who mentioned it was possibly a "wacky dream", and seems to me mostly likely it was since you brought it up...I can only speak for myself but I would know if I was chosen by some aliens to take a joy ride in their space craft, its not difficult for me to differentiate between a dream and physical reality...Sorry, but it reminds me of Billy Meier's travels through time and space with his mysterious alien buddies...

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Kchoo

At Peace.
You are the one who mentioned it was possibly a "wacky dream", and seems to me mostly likely it was since you brought it up...I can only speak for myself but I would know if I was chosen by some aliens to take a joy ride in their space craft, its not difficult for me to differentiate between a dream and physical reality...Sorry, but it reminds me of Billy Meier's travels through time and space with his mysterious alien buddies...

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Ok.
I was actually trying to be reasonable to suggest it could be a dream... wouldn't want to declare something as fact, myself being fearful of being accused of just being a hoaxer...

But never mind as my point is lost in it's own quagmire of self doubt, so why should I expect anyone else to give it any merit.

Not sure why you like to razz me so much... I try to be as rational as I can be, but if it is unacceptable to you, is it as unacceptable to the rest of us?

Should any thing with admitted doubt be dismissed?

What do the rest of you think?
 
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nivek

As Above So Below
Not sure why you like to razz me so much... I try to be as rational as I can be, but if it is unacceptable to you, is it as unacceptable to the rest of us?

Should any thing with admitted doubt be dismissed?

What do the rest of you think?

No need to take this to the extreme, I was simply offering a direct implication what you were subtly implying in your same post...If you wish to expound upon your 'experience' there is a personal experiences section for that, I would be most interested in reading the finer details of this trip through time and space...

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Kchoo

At Peace.
No need to take this to the extreme, I was simply offering a direct implication what you were subtly implying in your same post...If you wish to expound upon your 'experience' there is a personal experiences section for that, I would be most interested in reading the finer details of this trip through time and space...

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No need...
My intention was to try to contribute to this thread. I did not realize I was causing a disturbance here...

Feel free to remove this discussion from this topic if it has become too much of a distraction.

I mean no disrespect.
Thanks.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
Yeah the design of a field propulsion device is naturally going to be a radical departure from a rocket or aerodynamic type of device, and that's what we seem to be seeing with nearly all of the reports. It's weird when engineers try to analyze these craft in terms of human technology; I always imagine it like some Medieval feudal serf trying to understand a Ferrari - "it makes no sense....a carriage with no horses or reigns...it must be the Devil's work!"

There's a good summary of the problems inherent with interstellar rocketry in this article about a conference of scientists from NASA and the USAF and academia who looked at all of the known methods:
Rocket Scientists Say We'll Never Reach the Stars

They found that even the most efficient method using matter/antimatter annihilation, so only half of the mass of the craft would be devoted to fuel, would take 40 million metric tons of antimatter and an equal magnitude of matter to reach Alpha Centauri in 40 years. I would imagine that a containment failure of that much antimatter on the Earth, if we could even create that much of it in the first place, would probably put an abrupt end to global civilization.


Yeah that's an interesting question. They don't create a sonic boom when they leap from a dead hover to hypersonic velocity either.

I think what's happening is that the metric distortion field that propels the craft, also displaces the matter within that warped spacetime. So the matter just gets displaced around the craft as it moves, without imparting any momentum to it. Sorta like a buoy on the surface of the ocean - after a wave passes it's back to its original condition floating unperturbed.
For interstellar spacecraft you have to assume they are using an exotic propulsion scheme.

Or they have almost infinite life spans.

Humans go nuts after about 500 days. That is a good metric for the maximum travel time.

Otherwise they would have to have an enormous colony ship hidden behind the moon.


In theory an advanced alien craft for several people should be the size of the payload fraction of a rocket - or about the size of a school bus.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Interesting but I can't help but think of the arguments the cargo cults might have had sitting around the campfire at night. As for ET, we all have an unavoidable anthropomorphic bent to our perceptions, experiences, theories mo matter how detailed or well reasoned. Don't see how we could fail to.

This is a bit silly, but I remember a newspaper article about an octopus that let itself out of an aquarium at a zoo by doing a series of things the keepers never even thought of. Apparently they are quite intelligent and have some notable problem solving capacity. It had it's own ideas, agenda and capabilities that we never even suspected because we just couldn't fathom (in advance) what they might be. I wonder what it might have said if we could have tracked it down and talked to it. My anthropomorphism tells me it might've said "you buncha a******s"

I can't say what the source of this phenomenon is with any certainty, nor can anyone else. I can filter out the obvious fakery and most of the all too common lunacy - which is a lot of ufology in general really, but I really don't even know how to pick a starting point for any of this.
 

Kchoo

At Peace.
Interesting but I can't help but think of the arguments the cargo cults might have had sitting around the campfire at night. As for ET, we all have an unavoidable anthropomorphic bent to our perceptions, experiences, theories mo matter how detailed or well reasoned. Don't see how we could fail to.

This is a bit silly, but I remember a newspaper article about an octopus that let itself out of an aquarium at a zoo by doing a series of things the keepers never even thought of. Apparently they are quite intelligent and have some notable problem solving capacity. It had it's own ideas, agenda and capabilities that we never even suspected because we just couldn't fathom (in advance) what they might be. I wonder what it might have said if we could have tracked it down and talked to it. My anthropomorphism tells me it might've said "you buncha a******s"

I can't say what the source of this phenomenon is with any certainty, nor can anyone else. I can filter out the obvious fakery and most of the all too common lunacy - which is a lot of ufology in general really, but I really don't even know how to pick a starting point for any of this.
I think alot of it stems from a simple connection we all share .... a common universe.... it is in us... we are in it... we are learning to acknowledge it... simple as that...
Doesnt mean we get it all right, and yes, it often borders on lunacy, but at least we are looking into it instead of just laughing it all off.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
I think alot of it stems from a simple connection we all share .... a common universe.... it is in us... we are in it... we are learning to acknowledge it... simple as that...
Doesnt mean we get it all right, and yes, it often borders on lunacy, but at least we are looking into it instead of just laughing it all off.

Agreed. I'm not laughing it all off. I'm panning for gold
 
For interstellar spacecraft you have to assume they are using an exotic propulsion scheme.

Or they have almost infinite life spans.
Well we definitely know that they’re using an exotic propulsion scheme, because the only type of propulsion principle that can in theory produce the kinds of instantaneous accelerations that are commonly reported is a gravitational field propulsion system.

And a gravitational field propulsion system just happens to also be the only form of propulsion that permits superluminal speeds with no time dilation. So in theory, a craft using such a system could drop by the Earth from light-years away, and be back home in time for lunch.

Interesting but I can't help but think of the arguments the cargo cults might have had sitting around the campfire at night.
Except that we’ve made some significant progress in science. We know that intelligent life could arise around other stars, so we don’t have to resort to superstitious/mythical thinking to explain their origins. And we actually have a rational and explicit mathematical model that shows us precisely the kinds of performance characteristics that we’re seeing with these devices.

So we’re not exactly in the position of a primitive tribe, though there are still many similarities.

As for ET, we all have an unavoidable anthropomorphic bent to our perceptions, experiences, theories mo matter how detailed or well reasoned. Don't see how we could fail to.
Granted; that’s unavoidable – I especially find this applicable when people demand explanations of their behavior.

But I think that most of us can see in our pets, for example, that living beings (if we are dealing with living beings) have a lot in common. My dog expresses joy, and fear, and anger, for example – as most animals do, but certainly social animals like us, and presumably other beings who also live within a social structure. So I think that any social animal will share a lot in common with us in that regard.

But they’re also a technological species like we are, which means that they’ve had to figure out physics and various other sciences, which requires the judicious application of reason.

So they probably share an understanding of emotion and social mores, and they’re definitely proficient with logic or they couldn’t have built such marvelous devices.

One or both of those qualities provides a common foundation for one day understanding one another, I presume.

This is a bit silly, but I remember a newspaper article about an octopus that let itself out of an aquarium at a zoo by doing a series of things the keepers never even thought of. Apparently they are quite intelligent and have some notable problem solving capacity. It had it's own ideas, agenda and capabilities that we never even suspected because we just couldn't fathom (in advance) what they might be. I wonder what it might have said if we could have tracked it down and talked to it. My anthropomorphism tells me it might've said "you buncha a******s"

I can't say what the source of this phenomenon is with any certainty, nor can anyone else. I can filter out the obvious fakery and most of the all too common lunacy - which is a lot of ufology in general really, but I really don't even know how to pick a starting point for any of this.
The octopus simply didn’t have the conditioned context that we have when we look at things – we have cognitive biases about the things in our world, which they wouldn’t share. When we see a pen for example, we tend to see a writing implement, rather than a weapon, but it can of course be both. So it’s not surprising that an intelligent being would solve problems without our contextual cultural conditioning.

And we don’t have to anthropomorphize the octopus to understand what it was thinking, because its actions speak loudly: “get me the f*** out of here!”

Anyway, I think a good starting point is science. Which has recently informed us that billions of habitable worlds reside within our own galaxy, and by extension, most other galaxies as well. We’ve also learned about evolution, and understand the powerful adaptive advantage of intelligence. And we know that intelligence comes with goals and curiosity, because we have those as well – in fact the search for extraterrestrial life is a major drive for us. I see no reason to assume that other intelligent species will be any different in such regards.

I’m sure that we still have a great deal to discover, and learn about. But we’ve made some progress. We should build on that.

Rather than chucking it all out the window and going back to the irrational musings of our ancestors who probably saw these exotic objects in their skies as well, and attributed them to the passage of gods through the divine realms above.
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
I don’t know why you tagged me in this thread – we’ve debated this subject ad nauseum and you just ignore all of my points.
to continue the discussion ;)
Point 1: we know that there aren’t any macroscopic higher dimensions than the 4D spacetime that we observe, otherwise, a three-legged table would fall over. Since that doesn’t happen, there are no macroscopic higher dimensions.
i am talking about alternative realities, not dimensions in the mathematical sense
Point 2: Analyses of the Kepler mission findings have revealed that the average age of habitable Earth-like worlds in our galaxy (and most others, we can presume) is 1-3 billion years older than the Earth. So if you think that an encounter with an alien civilization that’s 1-3 billion years ahead of our civilization wouldn’t be “highly strange,” then I think you’re demonstrating a dearth of understanding. Imagine if we could go back in time and make contact with a human being 10,000 years in our own past. Then that human goes back and describes the experience to the tribe. They’d certainly find the whole tale “highly strange.” Now multiply that strangeness by 100,000. That’s the level of strange that we’re dealing with, if we’re dealing with civilizations that are 1,000,000,000 years ahead of us.
some outlier cases like the jean hingley CE3 and the bebedouro abduction says otherwise
The ETH doesn’t claim to explain all paranormal events. It would be crazy to think that any one answer could possibly explain all of the weird things that happen to people on rare occasion. And there’s no way to know which of these stories actually happened in objective physical reality – some may be hoaxes, some may be delusions, and some may have actually happened. So to assume that they’re all real, as you seem to do, is silly. It’s impossible to draw anything resembling rational conclusions from a totally dubious and noisy data set, i.e., “stories that people have told without any supporting evidence whatsoever.” You could drive yourself crazy trying to make sense of a data set like that.
what about paranormal hotspots and people that have experienced all those stuff during their lives? we have a few in this very forum if you wanna ask, in fact nivek is one,
there is a point that it stops being a coincidence and starts being a true enigma
This is what happens when people don’t understand physics. The rocket principle is grossly inadequate for interstellar spaceflight. This is an empirical fact. So expecting UFOs to look like rocket ships betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the physics of interstellar spaceflight.

In fact, the characteristics that we do observe for these craft – with astonishing regularity – such as silent hovering and dramatic accelerations, point decisively to a form of gravitational field propulsion that we only understand in theory, but can’t yet produce technologically.

That actually points to an ETH explanation. These craft were exhibiting these flight characteristics long before we even had a theoretical understanding of gravitational field propulsion. And actually, until about 20 years ago, the consensus was that such a thing would be impossible. But eventually theoretical physics advanced, and we now have a basic understanding of how it works. So this represents a valid scientific prediction of the ETH which was subsequently confirmed. So in my view the extraterrestrial hypothesis should be elevated from a hypothesis to a viable scientific theory, because it is.
but how do UFOs radiate heat or make artificial gravity?
It's also fairly easily falsifiable: once we scientifically analyze a single sample recovered from an alien device
suffice to say that is never gonna happen, remenber when the MJ12 papers surfaced and everyone thought we had found the explanation?
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
People want instant gratification now.Fast food,same day delivery split second internet connections.So because we haven’t definitively explained this phenomena as ET civilisations ,we start grasping for other answers.Considering it’s only been studied seriously since the 40’s our investigations into it are in its infancy in real terms.
We need to be patient,jumping for miraculous,illogical answers will get us nowhere.
UFOs have been here since we were monkeys and somehow we have done NO progress on finding anything about them, no, comparisions to hypothetical gravity drive vehicles don't count as proof
isn't that a bit suspicious?
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
Yeah I tried to have this debate with Gene Steinberg on his forums, but he refused; “let’s move on,” his usual blanket dismissal.

You’re spot on about the mentality that results in crazy paranormal/nonsensical/alternative explanations of the AAV phenomenon. They think that it must be wrong because we don’t have incontrovertible proof of the ETH after 70 years. But then they dismiss the real reasons why we don’t have proof after 70 years, which break down into two basic categories:

1.) There’s never been a proper scientific investigation of this phenomenon, in the public sector. Project Blue Book and the awful Condon Report, were whitewashes, not scientific investigations.

2.) The cover-up. The government, and specifically the military, has all of the evidence, and until very recently, they haven’t shared any of it. They have the photos, the radar tracking data, film and video footage, probably a slew of scientific readings from the special jets they had outfitted to collect data on these things. And apparently, they have downed craft. Obviously with the military hoarding all of the proof, the public can’t form a rational consensus on the subject.

So it’s actually crystal clear why we haven’t made progress on this subject. It’s impossible to make any significant progress in any area of interest when there’s no actual scientific study going on, and when your own government engages in a massive cover-up of all the credible data they have.
there have been several public attempts at finding what UFOs are since at least the 50's, including studies of window areas like point pleasant and the hudson valley, all reached a similar conclusion: there is more to the phenomena than we think
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
one of the greatest arguments I have on the ETH theory is what is called cultural Tracking. The ability for UFO's to look like the culture and times expect them to look like.
for example this from 1906
View attachment 3455
UFOs Used to be odd flying machines. with propellers and undercarriages. there were reports of top hat wearing men peering out and waving!
aliens as well have undergone a change.
View attachment 3457
The flatwoods monster. this alien looked out of a Sci fi movie! But after "Communion" we get the grey! My wife has a view they a spiritual beings. And will post on her view when she returns from work.
exactly, ufos change according to your progress, these days its almost impossible to find anything related to saucers, now take a look what happens when you type black triangle in the MUFON database
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
I have problems with the many assumptions built into this argument, starting with: why do you think that these airship reports have any relation to the AAV phenomenon? Let's say for the sake of argument, that they actually happened and weren't hoaxes. We had the technological capability to actually build airships at that time, so maybe somebody did. They could've been military projects, or the work some imaginative inventor with a wealthy patron who may have thought that airship travel would be a profitable business to get into.
wait until you read that book i told you about, he makes a good case that the airships weren't what they looked like
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
Craft like we've heard about in the Rendlesham case, for example, that can apparently morph between a glowing plasma that can break up into several independent flying parts and then converge to form a solid conical metal shape with landing gear - who ordered that? Some are long cylinders without any rocket exhaust, others are flat circular discs, some are domed discs, still others are sleek black triangles, and some are egg-shaped or orbs with prismatic shifting colors. And the recent Tic-Tac ufo case is yet another new one on me. I certainly wouldn't have expected this dizzying variety of configurations, and I'm a very imaginative guy. So whose expectations are these things conforming to?
science fiction, don't underestimate the genius of some of these writers, most of what we see today in ufology has appared in fiction at least once
I'm unconvinced by these arguments as well. All manner of humanoid alien beings have been described by various witnesses, and that continues today: Nordics, Reptilians, Greys, Mantis creatures, and dozens of others. In an infinite universe where the average habitable planet is 1-3 billion years ahead of the Earth, that kind of variety makes a lot of sense. The Greys do seem to be commonly reported, but they also seem to be associated with a large and on-going medical and/or psychological program of some type. And people were reporting them long before Streiber's book came out; I've heard a number of people say that they were shocked by the cover of Communion because it looked so much like the creatures they'd been encountering their whole lives.
as time went on UFOnauts became more boring and boring , and they stopped using realistic astronaut outfits and started wearing spandex suits just like in science fiction, go figure :Whistle:
certainly very appealing to science fiction writers like Gene Steinberg
OK, so first try counting all movies that feature a cosmic trickster type being, and after that count all movies that feature aliens, i will wait....
I was wrong its a fiery disk. This is a unusual case possible hoax. But without the original or the copy we will never know.

The Tulli Papyrus
thats a very fishy story and even if its real, it looks more like a spiritual halluginogenic trip than UFO experience, same for the ezekiel story
 
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