Bright Insight -JFK Assassination

Discussion in 'End Times & Conspiracies' started by Zeke, May 9, 2018.

  1. Zeke

    Zeke Noble

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    The Marrs lecture video is just a short visual summary of his best selling book Crossfire.

    I admit I'm not an expert on guns, never even fired one. This was a typo - meant AR. In the Smoking Gun video referred to as a "machine gun" by witnesses because they didn't know either what the agent in the car behind JFK was holding, only what it looked like. It's in the one photo- referring to whatever gun that was.

    If you think that the agent can accidentally shoot JFK in the head, then I guess anything is possible. The main problem I see from the The Smoking Gun video, is while the investigator bases his assessment by the data presented, unfortunately we have ample evidence that much of (or nearly all) the evidence (including the shells found/picked up never seen again/Oswald's alleged gun used, holding in photo and fingerprints on/the autopsy), have been all either been tampered with, destroyed or planted by the CIA to fit their narrative. So the data is compromised which we base the investigation on, leading to some erroneous theories based on faulty data.

    Otherwise, the investigator did all he could with what he was given, and that is to be commendable and understandable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  2. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    Easy to get lost in a lot of technical details here. I guess what got me going was when I skimmed the video the first thing I came across was McLaren - cue the dramatic music - trying to show how Oswald's shot would have been impossible due to the angle and curve in the road. Eh? Right away I objected having been there myself, looked out the next window over into Dealey Plaza and being military surplus collector and shooter I thought - why the hell not? A scoped rifle at less than 100 yards on a relatively large slow moving target on a bright clear day. In this theory it seems to hold that Oswald did actually hit the President and would have grievously wounded him in any case.

    And I believe there are pictures - or at least one - of him the Depository window immediately prior to the shooting. Again, have a look at Conspiracy Theorists Lie by James K Lambert. Well worth a look because it adds a ton of context that's usually missing from various theories.

    I did learn that Hickey did indeed have an AR-15 which surprised me but not overly. I remember when Reagan got shot suddenly there was an agent standing there with an Uzi that had been surprisingly well concealed. Both were state of the art hardware at the time and I guess if anybody would have it the Secret Service would. The only technical point about that I could make is that with a close range shot the body would have literally been covered with gunpowder residue. Hickey disputed all that and sued the author of the book for libel.

    Apart from all the tech stuff there is a recognizable pattern to all this that relates to many of the UFO cases we all read about. People draw dramatically different conclusions from looking at the same set of circumstances. Belief plays a part in that despite evidence to the contrary belief can't be shaken, even in a credentialed and/or respected individual. Go ask Stanton Friedman about typewriter fonts in that regard. Tons of eyewitness testimony that can support or refute just about anything - and we know how reliable that generally is. Then there is the ubiquitous evil government cover up. More time is spent theorizing about what-ifs than considering human foibles, although admittedly that's just what this latest theory is about. And we have writers - who want to sell a book or a video or just make a name for themselves - analyzing decades old data and lighting upon specific details to fit a theory. Not because their real interest is uncovering some hidden truth but for their own less altruistic reasons.

    Yeah, there could be more to it than meets the eye. An accidental discharge was certainly possible but at that point it may have been a case or rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic because Oswald already put one or two bullets in him. They found three cartridge cases on the floor next to the Carcano rifle and the bullet found on the stretcher matched it. Also don't forget that Oswald murdered a Dallas police officer with a .38 fifteen minutes later and the .38 and ammo he had on him when arrested matched perfectly. But of course, this is where the CIA comes in because they had all that prepared ahead of time in a masterpiece of coordination. The jurisdictional pissing contest in play at the time which resulted in the chain of evidence being imperfect would have nothing to do with it.

    Like a lot of the UFO cases I think that sometimes things are just what they appear to be and the contemporary sources got it right.
     
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  3. Zeke

    Zeke Noble

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    801
    Marrs was not only in the adjacent room to the alleged snipers room, but was in it and took the photo(s). What he says in this part is the tree was blocking line of site and since been trimmed down - not the curve of the street, though maybe that's pointed out somewhere else idk.

    This is the type of stuff we often see in skeptical arguments.

    If there was a financial exchange of goods, it's not credible. Simply writing a book or making living off, doesn't discredit the claims.

    If there are witnesses, it's not credible. One eye-witness account, sure. Two maybe. Three or up to ten accounts, I say that's credible evidence to have to deal with.

    The hard data pointed out that doesn't fit our argument we already reached is to be ignored. Lets just skim over that.
     
  4. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    I will sit and watch what Marrs has to say but for now I got curious. If you copied a URL from a specific position it doesn't seem to translate when posted here - just goes back to the beginning of the video.

    I remember it as one room (been a while since I was there) and the window used has been partitioned by glass so you can't look out the exact window but you can peer out through the one immediately to the right of it and look down into the Plaza. Smaller than you think. I kind of thought he might have had to make a lefty shot but nope, that doesn't look like it.

    This is a current image from Google Maps from the perspective the car at the Grassy Knoll looking back toward the building. I circled what I am pretty sure is the window Oswald was in. Howard Brennan is the witness who saw Oswald fire from there and gave testimony to the Warren Commission. Don't have to be Chris Kyle to make that shot.

    upload_2018-10-8_13-45-42.png

    McLaren was talking about the curve of the street. Not seeing a tree problem from 1963. This is a photo from that window taken at the time by the Dallas PD. View from the Texas School Book Depository

    upload_2018-10-8_13-47-6.jpeg


    I didn't know anything about Jim Marrs except having heard the name. I was surprised at some of what he published and this is a Publisher's Weekly review of Alien Agenda from about 1997. Sounds entertaining but makes me scratch my beard and squint a little.

    "Marrs shows little discrimination, overemphasizing dubious phenomena like remote viewing and crop circles, and giving nearly equal weight to ludicrous pretenders like Billy Meier (who claimed close encounter with Pleiadians) and sophisticated commentators like Jacques Vallée. Marrs even devotes a chapter to theories that the moon may be a UFO, and he refuses to rule out obvious frauds like the alien autopsy tapes. But if rigorous analysis escapes Marrs, little else does; this is the most entertaining and complete overview of flying saucers and their crew in years"
     
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  5. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    Now that I think about it the window I circled is probably the one I was looking out of and the one to the right of it is the one Oswald used. Dunno why I mixed that one up - maybe it's the disinformation agent in me.
     
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  6. Zeke

    Zeke Noble

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    801
    This is a subject I'v never really went deep into, mainly been focused on the UFO file. But Jim Marrs book Rise of the Third Reich and the continued suppression of documents 50 years after the fact, compel me to further look into. Stayed up late with these..

    Watched "The Smoking Gun" video again to get a better idea of his AR-15 arguments. Then I watched "Crossfire" and the update on Crossfire with Dark Journalist.

    Originally Jim Marrs' argument was mainly that a coup took place by officials at the highest level, and the details of the lower end players (who exactly shot JFK, how many bullets, from where) was not necessary to draw that conclusion. Then in updated and revised talk he believes in a 3 shooter theory or sniper triangulation of target. There's a hole on back of JFKs jacket that corresponds to a shot lower than the throat, so that would have come somewhere behind him and below. Is it possible the agent Hickey was one of the assassination teams and shot him in the back? We see "Umbrella man" pumping his umbrella in the moment between shots, Marrs suspects he was giving the cue to the backup shooter team (in the grassy knoll area) that JFK wasn't dead yet.

    With the Smoking Gun theory, I have several questions:

    Why does the investigator conclude it was an accidental shooting, why not just say, "Hickey must have shot him, we don't know if it was intentional or accidental." He injects his own theory and not going by just the data here.

    If it is as they say the 3rd kill head shot, how do you explain the head jerking back and brains falling towards back of the trunk with Jackie going to retrieve it?

    If Oswald on 6th floor was the assassin, why didn't he shoot him when the car was in perfect sight straight on towards him, but instead wait until it was going away from him and with poor line of sight with (partially) a tree in the way?

    How do you explain pictures in the grassy knoll with smoke? There's a picture also of an outline of "Badge Man" in the grassy knoll, with cigarette buds found as if someone was in the spot for some time.

    Further notes from Crossfire:

    The reports on Oswald's sniper perch on 6th floor originally had 2 shell casings found, whereas, later the Commission report had saying it was 3, they doctored it to fit the lone shooter Oswald narrative.

    Then we have the absolutely bizarre background of Oswald, with his Soviet Union trip and speaking fluent Russian. By Marrs theory, he had a body double and was part of a spy operation within the CIA. According to Marrs investigation his grave was damaged that sped up body decomposition. The theory is that he was a CIA asset, believing he was doing one thing, but actually just setup to be the fallguy in this plot. Check out all of the doctored pictures with the gun, his photo ids, etc,. This doesn't prove he didn't shoot JFK, but if we consider Lyndon Johnson already had memos to undo JFKs pulling out of Vietnam the day before the assassination, and J. Edgar Hoover had a memo showing he knew of Oswald three years prior - As a whole this is very compelling evidence towards a plot by these two with execution by the CIA/FBI/Mafia elements.

    Then there's the entire account of how Oswald was arrested after allegedly killing the cop. I hope you hear that part by Jim Marrs and the witness accounts which make no sense with the official Commission report.

    Try again at 14:10. He claims it was an oak tree blocking line of sight (partially). The photo you show from Dallas PD, doesn't show blocking sight though. In either case, the characteristics of the 3rd head kill shot don't match the characteristics of the first 2 shots. So that can mean only there was at least 2 shooters. I just don't see how the 3rd shot came from the back (as Smoking Gun claims). Everything I've seen points to the head shot by a grassy knoll shooter. However, is it possible agent Hickey could have shot him from the back intentionally in one of the earlier shots? Could that bullet caused the middle of back and out from throat injury?

    Here's the magic bullet "found" on the stretcher with more bits of metal showing in Connely's wrist than taken out. Only conclusion is this was planted to fit their narrative.

    MarrsBullet.JPG

    MagicBullet.JPG

    I have not heard of or read this. I'm familiar with his Rise of the Fourth Reich book (which I started a thread on here and am very impressed with) and now Crossfire. I don't think Aliens was his strength. The review you quote emphasizing "dubious phenomena like remote viewing and crop circle" I actually believe a percentage of the crop circles are caused by real ETVs, along with the majority of hoaxers. Same thing with RV or psychics, there's a small percentage that has shown ability, among mostly fakes. Lets not throw out baby with bath water. So I agree with Marrs views there too.

    Here's Jim Marrs as a 21 year old with one of the dancers at Jack Ruby's club. So he was well acquainted.

    JimMarrsClub.JPG
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
  7. Zeke

    Zeke Noble

    Messages:
    801
    JFK Three Shooter (Team) Theory
    An Exclusive at The Expanse


    Oswald is on the 6th floor with another mission he believes to protect the President. 2-3 teams of assassins triangulate JFK - one from the building (another floor/window, 5th or 6th floor on the opposite end of the building from LHO), second from the back (in or atop the DalTex building or maybe agent Hickey) and third Grassy Knoll (Badgeman or possibly mafia hitman Files). Umbrellaman cues if JFK is still alive. Handlers in the mix within each team.

    Alternative version: Oswald is on one of the assassination teams but misses one of two shots. The other teams execute their shots until the operation is successful. He follows an escape plan using two separate IDs. He gets a ride from officer J.D. Tippit to the theater from the boarding house to meet his handler David Phillips (according to James Files). It turns out Oswald was designated as the patsy or fallguy. Tippit is killed by a mafia hitman sent to kill Oswald, and he is entrapped in the theater. Inside they put the house lights on and give every opportunity to run in order to kill him trying to escape. After the arrest they subsequently resort to using Jack Ruby. All the evidence is altered, destroyed or planted to fit Oswald being the lone shooter, and investigated by those who orchestrated JFK's assassination.

    We can't be sure of all the details due to the evidence suppression, altering, planting and destruction - regardless we can reach several conclusions with confidence - multiple shooters as part of a coup overseen by the highest levels of government at the time - Lyndon Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover, managed by middle level agents like Hunt and Bush, and executed by lower level players in the CIA, FBI and mafia elements. We cannot accept the accidental AR-15 shooter theory as it fails to answer several significant aspects of the assassination.

    [​IMG]

    "There were 3 3 man teams...a comms man on radio responsible for coordinating the shots, a security/back up shooter and the shooter. One team behind the picket fence, one team in the TSBD, on either the 5th or 6th floor on the opposite end of the building from LHO and another team either in or atop the DalTex building. David Atlee Phillips was the ops officer, E Howard Hunt recruited the teams and was the contact/paymaster for the teams of shooters. Frank Sturgis was responsible for procuring the weapons and the logistics of the op. Oswald was working for the CIA and was not involved in nor was he aware of the plot, the CIA rogues that put the op together convinced LHO that he was the lone hope for thwarting the assassination of JFK, he was tapped to stop a lone shooter who would leap from the crowd and murder JFK from relatively short range with a handgun." - Rick B
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  8. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    Zeke;

    I need a bit of time to digest this, so no doubt this isn't my last post on the topic. I actually think I screwed up the Google Map photo and the circle should be up one to the right.

    I liked this post because it made me go find the Warren Commission's report online and here is the part specifically relating to the cartridge cases and the rifle: Appendix 10

    What I did do is go down to my bench and pull a number or expended cases. I reload as well as shoot. You don't tell cartridge cases by the dents in the sides, you tell them by the extractor and firing pin marks.

    The dents in the side are sort of irrelevant.

    More later

    Gotta go. Wife's pulling in ....
     
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  9. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    I have far less free time right now than I have had recently - thankfully - so I admit I just haven't looked through hours of video. But I did look through some. I had a number of responses to what I did see and realized this would devolve into a multi-thousand word ping pong match like other threads have. That sort of thing will convince no one and will bore the passingly interested.

    I don't want to lose sight of the fact that a human being has his brains blown out, another grievously injured, a uniformed police officer murdered and unfortunately that's easy to do.

    To tie this into other things we post about there are similarities. In many iconic cases we are here decades after the event and there are those who seize upon details and create a story line or theory out of them for their own purposes, which tend to attract followers. Even after the s**t's come out in the wash there are those who cling to their belief in the face of evidence that says otherwise. Kind of like finding out that Roger Patterson was out actually looking for Bigfoot to make a buck for his family before he died or that photo of Travis Walton holding up a check for some kind of UFO contest (thanks Creepy Green Light), or finding out that there really was a lighthouse flashing it's light in the Rendlesham Forest and the local cops knew it. Yada yada yada.

    Not in this case obviously, and not in the case of 9/11 - which bears many of the same conspiracy flags.

    But I do see authors and lecturers, attention seekers and those with some tangential involvement talking about trees, smoke, cigarette butts, blurry pictures and making references to specifics about firearms all trying to come to a specific conclusion. Details molded to fit a theory - which incidentally sells a book or fills an auditorium.

    You know what three letter agency I really believe is behind all this? Not the FBI or CIA although they absolutely play a part. In fact Oswald probably did kill Kennedy by himself and CYA was at the beating heart of the conspiracy. Have a look at this short article from 25 years ago that I think probably cuts to the chase: FBI'S HASTE SOWED SEEDS OF SUSPICION

    If you have to bet on either complicated-whatever or simple cover-your-ass-because-you-f****d-up-big-time I bet on the latter every time. Could the Russians have whispered "kill him" in Oswald's ear? Yup. Did CSI cordon off the area and properly account for the the spent rifle brass? Nope. No such thing at that time and the evidence wasn't handled in a fashion even close to current standards. Doesn't mean the Dallas PD was incompetent or wrong it just means it was 1963, and if you look into the specifics the Chief of Police had his own ego and agenda as did J.Edgar Hoover which benefited only the CYA.

    As to the specifics about the shooting - well, if you want to accept eyewitness testimony from those who saw smoke on the Grassy Knoll OK. If you want to make hay out of a Secret Service agent wagging around what was an advanced and uncommon weapon for the era, OK too. But the Warren Commission addressed many of the details regarding the witnesses, number of shots, angles, damage done by bullets, paraffin testing - to me - a man who has more than a passing knowledge of the topic - it sounds reasonable. If they got some of the details confused or wrong because of the chaos that reigned at the time I don't dismiss the conclusion or look for a different answer.
    Warren Commission Report: Table of Contents

    I have an interest in the technical side of the shooting. Yes, they can absolutely can identify a specific firearm by examining the cartridge cases and spent bullets. You would be very surprised to see that some spent bullets appear brand new, with rifling marks, no matter what they have passed through - which can be a considerable amount of material - or sometimes in what direction they travel. Got literally shot in the leg once by a highly unlikely ricochet and understand that at a visceral level. It didn't break the skin. It did hurt a LOT. In other instances, even into the same materials at the same time bullets and bullet jackets can fragment or even disintegrate. I have no problem with a single bullet theory passing through two men nor do I find it a stretch of the imagination that two shots from less than 100 yards from that old rifle at that angle could have done the damage seen.

    I've also fired my fair share of .223 and 5.56/45 - not the exact same thing - one of which that AR rifle used. IMO at the range indicated, a matter of a very few yards, there would have been far less of JFK's head available for autopsy and Jackie would have needed a squeegee and sponge to collect it off the trunk.

    Bolt faces, extractors, ejectors and firing pins also leave identifiable marks easily seen with a magnifying glass - of which the FBI had no lack. Dents in cases were likely a result of hitting the mount for the crappy scope or lip of the chamber, or even the floor. Bolt rifles depend upon how hard the human operates it. I lovingly extract the brass from my rifles because I want to preserve it for reloading - if I were fighting off zombies it would be a different story. Even with semi-auto rifles where that isn't a factor the case markings vary. Again, there are other marks and indicators that very much do matter and those are the ones the FBI used to match the weapon known to be in Oswald's possession. And yes, two cases, three, one fully loaded - chalk it up to human crapulence and CYA - and lack of CSI. Two shots were enough to get the job done.

    Sorry to drone on a thousand words (which I had hoped to avoid) . I was going to post some pics of extractors, firing pins, cases - and will if anyone cares - but have my doubts at this point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  10. Zeke

    Zeke Noble

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    801
    Thanks for your perspective pigfarmer with your firearms experience. But I'm going to have to disagree. Just because the CYA explanation is "simpler" doesn't make it more likely because it ignores many other aspects completely. It is a convenient way to explain the obvious cover-up, but falls short.

    For argument's sake, even if it was an accidental shot by the AR-15 carrying agent Hickey. They still had the main assassin Oswald who already shot JFK allegedly, possibly even with lethal shots. So there was no need to "cover your ass". Just say you went for your weapon to shoot the sniper Oswald and it accidentally went off. Going that route, it would be better ~ much simpler ~ than covering, altering, and suppressing every bit of evidence in the case indefinitely. So I don't don't buy the accidental explanation from multiple angles. The AR-15 is such an efficiently deadly assault weapon, continues to be shown. I think it's more likely he shot him on purpose as part of one assassination team.

    In the updated and revised Jim Marrs interview with Dark Journalist he references the sudden jerking of the president seen just around the time of the head shot - he suspects there might have been two shots hitting him at about the same time in the head. It's possible one was from behind him, and one from the front. He is not sure of these details or claims to know - and we don't need to, in order to draw several key conclusions already stated here - crossfire and coup headed by the highest levels of government.

    As Marrs says in his investigation, if you go by the Warren Commission report's ballistic and autopsy data, then yes, Oswald is the guilty party or at least one of the assassins. But if you are not going to independently investigate the case and just accept at face value the Commission's findings and data they provide, and at the same time ignore the data that's not included or shown conclusively to be changed to fit their narrative, then might as well don't even bother.

    And even if you accept the possibility of the magic bullet hitting both passengers from the earlier shots, how or why do we see JFK's head jerk back and his brains go flying towards the back of the car from the head shot if it was solely an accidental shot from behind? And why is a shot heard from the grassy knoll or somewhere in front of car (according to multiple acoustics experts)? The data is too much and ignored completely by the Smoking Gun over-simplistic explanation.

    Not FBI's haste that sowed seeds, but data uncovered. (link is dead btw)

    Granted it's a lot to actually investigate this case. If we were to compare every bit of data from the Commission report with earlier data or additional data. I've seen enough from people with careers investigating this, and can move on from with enough answers. I've spent over a year looking deeply into the UFO file, spilling into the Deep State file, just couldn't avoid the JFK file forever lol
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018 at 4:25 PM
  11. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    I see the link is dead - it figures. The Deep State is on to me perhaps, it had been working fine for me and was damned interesting. As I remember what it was talking about, Hoover had his (probably women's) panties in a bunch because the FBI had an extensive file on Oswald well in advance of the assassination. So did the CIA. Seems LHO visited the Russian Embassy in Mexico City shortly before November 1963 and the official he met with was their 'lead expert in assassination' - and I doubt they tried to discourage him. So the CYA I was talking about revolved around all that. Sounded like 9/11, and Pearl Harbor to some extent in that certain pieces of intelligence that might have been crucial were already in place but just weren't acted upon, but not out of conspiracy. Plus, the Dallas PD Chief - can't remember his name - was a bit of a showman and took credit for much of the FBI's work himself and that enraged Hoover even more. Sounded like a real shitshow.

    I'll keep looking and see if I can get that article. Worth looking at.

    One thing
    Eh, yes and no. There were many in the military that considered it utterly inadequate right up through the first two Gulf Wars. That's been a topic of debate forever. Back in '63 it had quite a few issues yet to be discovered and ironed out.
     
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  12. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    Hey - that link is behaving badly it just worked so I printed it. I attached it as a pdf
     

    Attached Files:

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  13. Zeke

    Zeke Noble

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    801
    I read this, very interesting bits of info.

    Marrs' counter explanation is that LHO had a body double as part of some spy or double spy operation. Helps explain his fluency in Russian as well. He details accounts of another LHO seen and suspected of traveling to embassy in Mexico City in anticipation of being made the fall guy. The CIA/FBI tried to blame the leftist/communist for JFKs assassination, but according to his investigation, was instead elements of far right wing Nazi-influenced fascists inside the U.S.

    He points to anomalies in his ID photos. Apparently one method for helping pass off body doubles was to stitch together a side from each.

    Capture2.JPG

    Capture.JPG
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018 at 6:24 PM
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  14. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light I'd rather not care than to be aware

    Messages:
    287
    You're welcome :)
     
  15. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light I'd rather not care than to be aware

    Messages:
    287
    Since I am no authority on the subject of JFK, can anyone summarize what new information was learned when his "files" were recently opened up? I take it not much otherwise it would have been front page news for a month. Thanks :)
     
  16. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    3,095
    that doesn't means he isn't lying...
     
  17. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

    Messages:
    4,044
    This is the same thing that happened when they released millions of pages of documents in the 1990s. But then much of it appeared to be classified for so long simply because it was forgotten.
     

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