Civil Unrest & Protests

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Thanks for your concern. No Pigfarmer, my friend, things are much better today and I only needed to vent. It was a situation I've noticed you too are sadly familiar with.

Yeah, I don't mean to hijack this thread but I have seen a number of gun toting idiots who want to stand guard in front of various businesses. Mistake, IMO. Guns do not serve to deescalate anything. You're not going to wave one around, do a little speechifying, and then expect others to meekly submit. That's BS from the TV and movies. The only reason you produce one is to kill someone in self defense, period. Years ago there was a good book circulating by Massad Ayoob called Stressfire that explained it very clearly.

So if you're locked down and you have people breaking down your door then damn the torpedoes, but anything short of that will be a huge cause for regret.

Glad you're not peering out through the sally port.
 

Toroid

Founding Member

www.youtube.com/watch?v=slm1IUmgSDc
Published on Jun 3, 2020
As the world braces for yet another night of protests as governors from Texas to the northeast insist that they would never allow the military to unload on American citizens (technically, active-duty military aren't legally allowed to perform 'policing' functions, per federal law), police in LA say they've arrested a man caught impersonating a member of the national guard.

Learn More:
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/l...
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
I carry concealed at all times. I won't draw or display a weapon unless not doing so means I or someone else are going to die. If I can get out of a situation without using a weapon and/or engaging in any sort of violence then that is what I am going to do. I don't disagree with open carry, I just think its nobody's business if I am carrying and it attracts unwanted attention.
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
Yeah, I don't mean to hijack this thread but I have seen a number of gun toting idiots who want to stand guard in front of various businesses. Mistake, IMO. Guns do not serve to deescalate anything. You're not going to wave one around, do a little speechifying, and then expect others to meekly submit. That's BS from the TV and movies. The only reason you produce one is to kill someone in self defense, period. Years ago there was a good book circulating by Massad Ayoob called Stressfire that explained it very clearly.

So if you're locked down and you have people breaking down your door then damn the torpedoes, but anything short of that will be a huge cause for regret.

Glad you're not peering out through the sally port.

This, 1000%. Unfortunately police are trained and expected to use a gun as a compliance tool, not just as a deadly weapon. Most of the time it works but when it doesn't, and the perp continues to resist but without a deadly weapon of their own, unarmed people get shot. I don't feel sorry for perps who get pepper sprayed or tased for resisting, but shooting an unarmed person is wrong 99.9999% of the time.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
This, 1000%. Unfortunately police are trained and expected to use a gun as a compliance tool, not just as a deadly weapon. Most of the time it works but when it doesn't, and the perp continues to resist but without a deadly weapon of their own, unarmed people get shot. I don't feel sorry for perps who get pepper sprayed or tased for resisting, but shooting an unarmed person is wrong 99.9999% of the time.

Agreed. I remember seeing .38 specials in gun shops that were literally frozen into their rotting leather holsters because they had likely never been used beyond once a year qualification. Times have certainly changed.

This is the article that generated my comments about all this:
https://nypost.com/2020/05/28/armed-rednecks-stave-off-looters-amid-george-floyd-protests/
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
I would say these guys' hearts are in the right place, but they are still enthusiastically embracing the thorny problem of using deadly weapons to confront unarmed but still violent people. I'm not taking a chance on going to prison for decades and/or being at the center of an incident which prompts more protests and violence, and in either case I would bear the mark of Cain for all eternity.

I have a 1967 S&W 10-5 .38 that came from the estate of a longtime Lexington, KY copper. Lots of holster wear but locks up tight as a watch with an awesome trigger pull and great accuracy. Even today I would feel well protected with it on my side.
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
I would say these guys' hearts are in the right place, but they are still enthusiastically embracing the thorny problem of using deadly weapons to confront unarmed but still violent people. I'm not taking a chance on going to prison for decades and/or being at the center of an incident which prompts more protests and violence, and in either case I would bear the mark of Cain for all eternity.

I have a 1967 S&W 10-5 .38 that came from the estate of a longtime Lexington, KY copper. Lots of holster wear but locks up tight as a watch with an awesome trigger pull and great accuracy. Even today I would feel well protected with it on my side.

Revolvers sort of faded away but I love them and have put tens of thousands of rounds through my 686 and 629. Kind of interesting that years ago a shotgun and .38 or .357 made a police officer well protected. Now it's all military style gadgetry and high capacity. The militarization of police has a role to play in all this insanity, I think. Hard to say how much or exactly in what way but I don't necessarily look at it as a positive.
 

nivek

As Above So Below
A couple excerpts from the following link...

Is America being torn apart by a total, complete -- but provable -- lie?

If you're grieving for America right now, you are not alone. Millions feel the same way you do.

So many of our leaders, by contrast, are not grieving. They seem exhilarated. They feel nothing as our nation descends into anarchy. They see chaos, instead, as an opportunity, a chance to solidify their control, to increase their market share to win elections.

What they're defending and encouraging has nothing to do with civil rights. It is violence, and the criminals you see on the screen are not protesters.

---------------------

"Defund the police." No sane person would dare to have said something like that in public just a week and a half ago. Now, a member of Congress has endorsed the idea -- Rashida Tlaib.

So, what would happen to our country if we eliminated law enforcement? Eric Garcetti is the mayor of Los Angeles, the second biggest city in America. His city would devolve into a murderous hellscape within hours if the police left.

But Garcetti, who is in charge of the city, won't push back against this idea. Instead, he kneeled in subservience before the people demanding it.

(Much more on the link)

.
 

nivek

As Above So Below
This is sort of a rhetorical question but if aliens were to land on earth in public today, would it bring humanity together or would we do something terrible and reactionary, given all the turmoil and a pandemic sweeping the globe?...

...
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
Revolvers sort of faded away but I love them and have put tens of thousands of rounds through my 686 and 629. Kind of interesting that years ago a shotgun and .38 or .357 made a police officer well protected. Now it's all military style gadgetry and high capacity. The militarization of police has a role to play in all this insanity, I think. Hard to say how much or exactly in what way but I don't necessarily look at it as a positive.

The militarization of police is a very bad idea. If coppers NEED armored vehicles and machine guns then something is dreadfully wrong with our society. Not to mention, look at what often happens with all that firepower at their disposal. How many unarmed people have been thoroughly swiss cheesed by the NYPD in the last 20 years? In fact it almost happened again yesterday. Sounds like they are the ones that need low capacity mags and "assault weapons" bans!
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
The militarization of police is a very bad idea. If coppers NEED armored vehicles and machine guns then something is dreadfully wrong with our society. Not to mention, look at what often happens with all that firepower at their disposal. How many unarmed people have been thoroughly swiss cheesed by the NYPD in the last 20 years? In fact it almost happened again yesterday. Sounds like they are the ones that need low capacity mags and "assault weapons" bans!

The police are our first responders and I think it best to tread carefully when we start vilifying them in the court of public opinion.

That said, we're all human beings first and anything else second. First take the sheer numbers of police officers - in that group its statistically certain that some fairly large number will have personal issues that make them less than ideal. Hell, take any group of people doing a job and some will naturally excel while others barely squeak by. I knew a guy that became a police officer who was a bully and remained one for the 25 years he served. He did something right at the end that got him fired and he had to sue to get his retirement benefits reinstated. Anybody that knew him as a kid was not remotely surprised when reading about all that in the paper.

Then add in all the violence and riots. Some might be perfectly fine ordinarily but some combination of fear, adrenaline, performance in front of peers, anger makes them do things they normally wouldn't. I just saw a video of a 75 year old man in Buffalo getting knocked over and cracking his skull on the pavement in a bloody mess -- and then (from the looks of it) ignore him.. Horrifying. I'd bet that individually these guys would never do that. Maybe the one that pushed him would. I don't know. But put them in that situation in the first place especially in all that impersonal riot gear and here we have it.

I also couldn't help but think that there are any number of Iraqi and Afghan citizens who might look at that and say 'good you're getting a taste of your own medicine'. 20 years of warfare .... for what exactly .... has downstream effects and maybe we're looking at some of them right now.

Apart from the protests and rioting since this is AE I'd point out that John B Alexander says something similar about the millions of people in our military. The uniform represents training and commitment not superpowers, and it doesn't necessarily level the playing field in terms of behavior. I'd also point out that in all this insanity we've seen people who are city councilmen, ivy league lawyers, all sorts of people behaving in ways you would never suspect under ordinary circumstances. When it comes to UFO reporting, and any other paranormal circumstance, I try to think of the human being involved first and the uniform and credentials second.

Oh, and swiss cheese. I shot in a local IDPA style combat league with a bunch of cops. One state trooper in particular is a young man I watched grow up and have serious doubts about him being an authority figure. Hopefully he'll mature. I was surprised at how, in general, they're lousy shots. Can't take it for granted that they know all that much about the weapons they carry. One deputy sheriff i sued to call 'machine gun kelly' because he could rip through magazines like John Wick and at any moment have a handful of hot brass in the air. But he couldn't hit the side of a barn. If the adrenaline from some friendly competition does that I hope he never has to do that out in public.
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
Perhaps Minneapolis PD has a long history of uncorrected bad behavior? I'm wondering if the George Floyd incident is just the tip of the iceberg, or the final skeleton that pushed the rest of them out of the closet.
 

Captain Tinkle

Honorable
You know I was watching the First Purge earlier today. I was thinking this would never happen.

Then I watched some videos on Facebook of "protests" (rioting), of people literally pulling people out of cars and attacking them on highways, smashing up shops and the usual looting. Amazing what a mob mentality will do.

Also I read somewhere that the chap who was killed had quite the criminal record including holding a pregnant lady hostage, pointing a shotgun at the belly? Did it deserve a death sentance, no. I would not however hold him up as someone to "protest" over.
 

Rick Hunter

Celestial
In many places the protests have been peaceful, however those aren't making the news. For example, one county over from me in Lexington there has been only one violent incident in eight days, which may have not associated with the protest. If it bleeds it leads.
 
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