DeLonge’s UFO Team Studying Alien Metal

Discussion in 'Alien Hub' started by nivek, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Honorable

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    Building a spacecraft qualifies as “manipulating matter.”

    Gravitational field propulsion is both theoretically viable, and the only known method for traversing interstellar distances without incurring time dilation penalties. So it's both physically viable and "realistic." The dynamics of the theory also match the reported observations perfectly. So we know that it's possible, and we have widespread observational confirmation that it's the preferred mode of propulsion for AAVs across the world and spanning at least seven decades of reporting.

    I’ve never seen any compelling evidence that anyone or anything can pass through solid matter.

    But it can’t be ruled out either. “Solid matter” is almost entirely empty space. So a sufficiently advanced technology may be able to provide means of moving one object through another. Given a 1-3 billion year head start, it’s impossible to know what would eventually become scientifically achievable.

    Arthur C. Clarke wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

    That’s important to bear in mind, because today’s technological capabilities would have seemed exactly like magic just one or more centuries ago. Quantum teleportation, the laser, smartphones, holograms – the list goes on and on. Only a fool would expect to understand all of the technologies available to a species that had mastered interstellar spaceflight.

    Another absurd statement. People who don’t have UFO encounters, have paranormal experiences. So ruling out people who have had AAV experiences, because they subsequently also had a paranormal experience, is totally illogical.

    Whatever that means.

    Do you even listen to yourself? First of all, who are you to say how “true scientists” should behave? Richard Feynman was a Nobel laureate physicist who enjoyed playing bongos and flirting with women.

    But it’s absurd to project your own beliefs about how “an alien should act,” upon reality, and then reject the reality because it doesn’t conform to your own expectations.

    Reality is not obligated to conform to your expectations. Most people realize that by the third grade.

    Well that’s absurd. Dismissing the personal testimony of our top fighter pilots, and highly trained professional military radar operators, requires a level of arrogance that even I can’t aspire to.

    But it’s totally hypocritical also – because you have zero evidence, “hard” or otherwise, to support your own totally illogical and unintelligible “extradimensional ultraterrestrial” aka “supernatural” hypothesis.

    So you want a photo of a dead alien body. Good luck with that. Even if the government had an alien corpse, which I doubt but can't rule out, they’d never show it to you, aka the public. Take a few minutes to study government classification.

    I wish you’d keep it private, then. Because your irrational assaults upon science and reason, which you’re posting all over the internet and this forum in particular, forces me to waste hours of my time writing rebuttals like this one.

    Only a religious fanatic would state that the ETH is worse than a totally supernatural explanation that defies all known laws of physical reality and a mountain of empirical evidence.

    That makes no sense. We know for a fact that most of the government’s work on this topic has been and continues to be classified. Therefore it’s quite possible that someone who’s privy to that information could leak some of it. Such a person would be, by definition, a whistleblower.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
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  2. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    i am saying that they should have oposable thumbs or something similar
    if that was true, would it not be possible to detect the distortion caused by a UFO in space-time? also we still don't know if gravitational warp propulsion is feasible
    i know several reports where this happens
    but still some of the reported things stretch believability
    maybe i should have been a bit more specific on that one but what i was trying to say is that the witness shouldn't have paranormal experinces immediatelly after the encounter or she can't have more experiences than normal after the encounter
    you know what a hotspot is right?!, a paranormally inactive area is the opposite of a hotspot
    they should behave like astronauts serious and focused on their work
    huh? i said right in my post that i accept the testimonies of the witness, just like the videos, but the rest? meh
    what if TTSA is mailed one then?
    again, i debating with people, doesn't counts as research
    good for you
    such a high up secret? they would be assasinated before they even tryed
     
  3. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Honorable

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    Not just that, it was even proven in laboratory and results published in top tier pier reviewed scientific journal.
     
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  4. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Honorable

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    Claws and pincers are opposable.

    It would probably be possible to detect the field with the proper scientific instrumentation on the target, but it wouldn’t be visually apparent.

    We know that gravitational field propulsion is theoretically feasible. But we haven’t arrived at the technology of “applied general relativity” yet. Once we do, it will work. The viability of the field propulsion metric isn't even in question. The debate now is focused on two questions; "how can it be done," and "can it yield superluminal speeds?"

    There’s also no credible alternative theory for the propulsion of these objects. Let us know if you come up with one.

    That’s silly. They’ve clearly mastered the ability to travel wherever they want to go, so for them exploring the Earth is about as challenging as a trip to the grocery store is for us. How many people going to the grocery store conduct themselves like serious and focused astronauts?

    That’s probably why it’s never happened. But it could. For example, it looks like Sen. Harry Reid leaked his FOIA-exempt 2009 letter to the Deputy Secretary of Defense, requesting higher-level SAP classification for some aspects of the AATIP. That was a classified document. So technically, Sen. Reid is now a UFO whistleblower, apparently. Bless his heart.

    Wait, what? Got a link?
     
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  5. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    This is the one I was thinking of...

    Gravitational Field Propulsion

    Current space transportation systems are based on the principle of momentum conservation of classical physics. Therefore, all space vehicles need some kind of fuel for operation. The basic physics underlying this propulsion principle severely limits the specific impulse and/or available thrust. Launch capabilities from the surface of the Earth require huge amounts of fuel. Hence, space flight, as envisaged by von Braun in the early 50s of the last century, will not be possible using this concept.

    Only if novel physical principles are found can these limits be overcome. Gravitational field propulsion is based on the generation of gravitational fields by man made devices. In other words, gravity fields should be experimentally controllable. At present, it is believed that there are four fundamental interactions in physics: strong (nuclei), weak (radioactive decay), electromagnetic and gravitational.

    As experience has shown for the last six decades, none of these physical interactions is suitable as a basis for novel space propulsion. None of the advanced physical theories, like string theory or quantum gravity, go beyond the four known interactions. On the contrary, recent results from causal dynamical triangulation simulations indicate that wormholes in spacetime do not seem to exist, and thus even this type of exotic space travel may well be impossible.

    However, recently, novel physical concepts were presented that might lead to advanced space propulsion technology, based on two novel fundamental force fields. These forces are represented by two additional long range gravitational-like force fields that would be both attractive and repulsive, resulting from interaction of gravity with electromagnetism. A propulsion technology, based on these novel long range fields, would be working without propellant.

    The current theoretical and experimental concepts pertaining to the novel physics of these gravity-like fields are discussed together with recent gravitomagnetic experiments performed at ARC Seibersdorf (2008). The theoretical concepts of Extended Heim Theory, EHT, are employed for the explanation of these experiments.


    .
     
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  6. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Honorable

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    All of that was discredited, sadly. Heim theory fell apart when a theorist discovered that Heim had either intentionally or inadvertently created a table of inputs based on widely available empirical data, which resulted in the correct "predictions" for the fundamental particle masses. So his theory turned out to be worthless.

    Then Dröscher and Hauser issued that paper to resuscitate Heim theory by offering an exotic model of new gravitational forces to explain Tajmar's anomalous findings with his spinning superconductor experiments. But a careful analysis following a series of failures to confirm the effect at a laser interferometer observatory revealed that the anomalous accelerations he had detected were actually attributable to the circulation of gas within the cryonic chamber he was using. So there were no anomalous forces to explain after all, therefore their exotic theoretical explanation of them proved this paper to be worthless. Dröscher and Hauser also mistakenly asserted in this paper that additional gravitational forces are required for gravitational field propulsion (GFP) - but we've known that to be false at least since 1994, if not decades earlier. GFP is viable within the context of GR alone, as long as a negative gravitational pole (antigravity) is physically real, and dark energy proves that it is. So we don't actually need any new theory to achieve GFT; all we need now is a method of technologically synthesizing opposing gravitational poles of sufficient field intensity. We probably won't be able to do that until we have a quantum field theory of gravity.

    There's a paper out there about a method to create the first laboratory-generated gravitational field, using a pair of huge superconductive magnets and a very finely tuned interferometer. But it would be quite expensive, and the field would be incredibly weak, so nobody's been interested in funding it, afaik. I don't think that anyone has either generated or manipulated a gravitational field in the lab yet - it's my primary area of interest so it's hard to imagine that it could've slipped by me unnoticed. Tom DeLonge has claimed that the government studied a piece of recovered photonic metamaterial that allegedly generated a repulsive gravitational field under activation with THz radiation, and a couple of others on his team have confirmed the existence and a couple of the other features of that material. So I think it exists, and remains classified. TTSA is probably hoping to get a similar sample via public channels so they can show us the experimental results - that's probably a long shot though. I was frankly stunned to find that a recent analysis of the stress-energy tensor of photonic metamaterials does in fact provide a mechanism for increasing and decreasing the mass of such a material under exposure to THz radiation - the effect would be too small to detect in the known varieties of photonic metamaterials, however. At this point I'm tentatively assuming that future work will find ways to amplify those stress-energy tensor effects - once an effect is discovered, we always find ways to amplify them, eventually.
     
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  7. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Wow I did not know that, thanks, I read some of that paper before but never finished it nor followed up with it lol...It came to mind again earlier today...

    ...
     
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  8. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Honorable

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    Well at least now you don't have to bother finishing it :) I got interested in Heim theory about 12 years ago, when people said that Heim theory correctly predicted the mass spectrum of fundamental particles. That would be a major theoretical advancement - the Standard Model (SM) can't do that; the fundamental particle masses are inputs in the SM, not outputs.

    So I followed the work of a theorist who took on the project of evaluating the theory by translating the German texts and programming Mathematica to calculate the particle masses. It took a year or two before he discovered the table of constants that Heim had used to make those mass predictions had been written in by hand among his early papers - not derived from first principles as claimed. And those mass predictions were the only meaningful predictions in the entire, highly complicated, theory. So with those discredited, it was worthless.
     
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  9. Thunder_Bull45

    Thunder_Bull45 Native Injunuity

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    Why can’t they be both? The ETH and IDH? We understand more about physics than we do human consciousness, whoever figures that out will probable win the nobel! If a civilization exists that’s mastered space travel who’s to say they don’t hold the keys to the conscious as well?

    Wouldn’t they manifest themselves in ways we would understand!? In the 1500’s UFOs were described as flying ships , in the ancient texts they’re described as flying chariots or floating wheels. Post air travel and they’re space ships!

    Early abduction accounts speak of Martians or Jupiterians (Think i just made that up) now that we know those planets can’t sustain life it’s shifted to other solar systems . We didn’t understand that there was other solar systems back then but we knew Jupiter.

    I don’t have a dog in this fight, just speculating on the subject . Carry on lol
     
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  10. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Honorable

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    Don't you remember, a paper from Tajmar's video? We talked about it before, you were quite delighted, you found the paper online and gave me the link. Check your archive.


    Lets not forget that highly accurate mathematical models of Milky Way galaxy, based on the latest scientific knowledge collected over the last 50 years, predict that there are about 10,000 civilisations with intelligent life and that 77% of them, or about 7,700, are 3.5+ billion years older than us. Just taking that context into the account, means that chance we are not constantly visited by local aliens to be zero, zilch, nada!


    When the whole UFO story is taken into account, and looked throught the lens of modern science, like General Relativity etc., the only conclusion is not just that they are here, but that US is running a secret program and has few spacrafts in it's possesion. There are lots of credible witnesses who had seen UFOs coming in and out of various weapon testing facilities.

    When col. Corso said that UFOs can be shot down with strong, narrow beams of tracking radars, he practically confirmed that UFOs are made from meta-materials that are pumped with EM waves. And here Tom DeLonge and TISA find that a piece of alien meta-material produces gravitaitonal effect when pumped with THz EM waves. Col. Corso and TISA are cross-confirming each other. Doping of meta-materials with EM waves must be very precise, if you suddenly target UFO with tracking radar, you completely disrupt these fine tuned patterns and UFO loses control.

    One of many Roswell crash documentaries, that I watched long time ago, claimed that Roswell UFO crashed as it was flying through tunderstorm with lightings, while it was tracked by radar from that nuclear bomber airbase (forgot the name). Documentary had shown the actual radar's generator installation, in that now abandoned airbase, and at a time it was the most powerfull radar in the whole of US. Thunderstorm's ligthnings, combined with tracking radar's beam would make huge eddie currents in a meta-material of which UFO's hull was made and completely screw up any artificial gravitational effects. Obviously, that account became just one of many, becuse it was drawned in a noise of all other rummors, but scientifically speaking it tallies up 100% with meta-materials pumped with EM.

    As well, Col. Corso offered a story, where British forces stationed in Germany during cold war, shot down UFO with tracking radar near the East-West Germany's border and immediately surrendered the craft to US. US and UK have classified information sharing agreement dating back to 50s, so UK must had been in the know on many UFO secrets.

    Even recent increase in appearance of black triangle shaped UFOs suggest that metamaterials are at play. One of US volunteer agencies that takes in UFO testimonials (where Dr. Mark Rodegheir is director), said that over the last 20 years trend is that silver disc type of UFOs completely wanished and that the most dominant trend is appearance of black triangles, mostly during night hours. As we all know, flat faced triangular shapes are the best for radar avoidance, as confirmed by shapes of modern stealth aircraft. Practically, as US started bringing down UFOs with tracking radars, UFOs adopted their suddenly walnerable metalic disc type of craft and enveloped them into triangularly shaped radar absorbing materials.

    And Thomas had shown a recently published paper before where about 0.25 speed of light can be acheived with meta-material pumped with EM waves. “Metamaterial-based model of the Alcubierre warp drive,” Smolyaninov, Physical Review B, 2011 https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1009/1009.5663.pdf

    Mathematics of meta-materials is plain vanila, it's more advanced engineering maths than proper science. Problem is making meta-materials, since they would practically need to be assembled in space, atom by atom. Even the most technically advanced country on Earth, like US, can not do that, without bankrupting itself 10 times over. Whole technology is at least 100-200 years away. The only way US got it's spacecraft is either by shooting them down with tracking radars, or through some kind of barter or piecing together several crashed saucers.

    Mind you, while meta-materials are big engineering problem, UFO powerplant is not. There is a whole plethora of a small fision reactors developed during a Cold War that are powerfull enough to drive UFOs. Actually power output of UFOs is known variable (within reason), but that's another topic. But fision is radioactive and asks for lots of heavey shielding. On another side, 2-3 years ago Lockheed Martin anounced that it will develop a fusion reactor for power generation (not for propulsion) that can fit on a back of a lorry, within 5 years. Fusion reactors are clean, no radiation, no heavy shielding needed, just loads of power.

    Warp drives made from metamaterials pumped up with EM waves are point where UFOs and modern science meet. Only problem is how to make civilian scientist to take this seriously.




     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
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  11. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Honorable

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    Okay I see what you’re getting at now – you’re talking about the papers cited in this excellent video from Dr. Martin Tajmar:



    First he cited this paper which showed that neutrons endowed with negative effective mass within a silicon crystal, fall upward in a gravitation field:

    "Gravity and inertia in neutron crystal optics and VCN interferometry," Zeilinger et al.,1996
    https://www.univie.ac.at/qfp/publications3/pdffiles/1996-23.pdf

    Then he cited this paper which demonstrates that two beams of photons moving through a nonlinear optical crystal, one with positive effective mass and the other with negative effective mass, experience a self-acceleration in the same direction, as predicted by the gravitational field propulsion principle known as the diametric drive.

    “Optical diametric drive acceleration through action-reaction symmetry breaking," Wimmer et al., 2013
    https://www.creol.ucf.edu/Research/Publications/7155.pdf

    This experiment shows that the principle works, as theorists such as Robert Forward had predicted decades ago, but it is only as analogue to a gravitational field propulsion system – the photons aren’t actually interacting gravitationally. But it is compelling evidence that the concept itself is physically valid.

    What remains to be demonstrated is this kind of behavior outside of a modulating medium, through empty space. It’s a very interesting question: outside of the material, which form of mass should we be applying the stress-energy tensor of general relativity to – the rest mass or the effective mass? In other words, if we can create poles of negative and positive mass with in a material, will the interaction between those poles induce acceleration of that sample through space? As far as I can tell, that remains an unanswered question at this point.

    I have a hard time imagining that the interior effects could translate to exterior dynamics – outside of these crystals, the mass of the neutrons for example is still positive, so from the exterior there’s no negative mass. On the other hand, it could be the interaction between the two mass poles which matters, their subjective reference frame.

    His proposed experiment using asymmetrically charged electrets materials seems like a promising approach to test this. It’ll be interesting to see what he finds. If he could produce even a miniscule self-acceleration, it would rock the foundations of physics.

    I wish him luck. It’s been wonderful to see him make the transition from a dreary academic skeptic, to an audacious advocate of fundamental research in to the physics of gravitational field propulsion.

    Well, we don’t know how accurate that estimate of the prevalence of technological civilizations is yet. I suspect that it’s much higher actually. But the age estimates look pretty good; I conservatively cite a range between 1-3 billion years ahead of us, just to be safe – it’s still an evolving area of statistical astrophysical analysis. And anything > 1 billion years makes the point very clearly – the vast majority of civilizations out there will be incomprehensibly farther along than we are technologically.

    I’m sure that the military has some amazing highly classified craft, but I don’t think they’ve achieved gravitational field propulsion yet. I could be wrong, but the exotic test flights we’ve seen around the bases haven’t demonstrated the extremely dramatic accelerations that are routinely associated with anomalous AAV cases. So if they’ve got it, they’re hiding it very well.

    A lot of what Col. Corso said seems like BS to me. But maybe he was right about a few things. In any case I think it is far more likely that we’ve downed a few of these craft, than it is that they just crashed on their own. If I had to bet on it, I’d bet that we have crash recoveries stashed someplace.

    I don’t know if they have to be made in space, but yes it’s quite far beyond out manufacturing capabilities.

    And I think you’re underestimating the physics here – a metamaterial that could induce the kinds of gravitational field propulsion physics that we’re talking about, would by definition be a physical embodiment of a grand unified theory. That’s far more significant than just crunching the numbers – it’s about a quantum theory of gravity.

    A lot of academic scientists have been taking this subject seriously for a long time; they’ve just been afraid to talk about it. That’s begun to change since the AATIP story broke, and Luis Elizondo started talking about it publicly.

    But ironically it’s the loudest voices in the ufology community who are fighting against it now – the community has been very effectively co-opted by the internal government forces that don’t want the public to take ufology seriously. It’s infuriating to witness…talk about being your own worst enemy. And the goddamn “cosmic trickster” crowd that wants people to think that some imaginary supernatural entity is only making witnesses *think* that they’re seeing alien craft, are doing as much damage as the cynical pseudo-skeptics who won’t believe that anything anomalous is happening until they can have an alien drop by for dinner one fine evening.

    “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right…”
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
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  12. Thunder_Bull45

    Thunder_Bull45 Native Injunuity

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    Aliens the atheist god! They possess superior intellect and cruise the cosmos only to casually visit earth for a few hillbilly’s to see them and take shaky cell phone pics.

    Seriously though, if the military is collecting all these space ships, potentially even shooting them down, placing ‘em in prison and interrogating them to death, then desecrating their bodies with autopsies and non ceremonial earthly burials .

    Wouldn’t they be pissed!? o_O

    I think it’s most likely that earth is like the ET’s Tijuana! “Hey y’all, let’s get shit faced and cruise the old ship across earth while watching all the idiots”

    What else would they keep coming for !? Reproduction ? Why in the hell would they want humans for that?

    What if... all the billions of galaxies only contain a handful of civilizations , some of them may be ancients who destroyed themselves with garbage . Kinda like we are trying to do! Some of them may be extremely intelligent and live like Natives taking care of their planet and not giving a shit about us, and some of them may be intergalactic and shit.

    Then again we may be the smartest mofos on the block and that’s some scary shit! Could see how atheists could worship aliens. :smile3:
     
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  13. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Honorable

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    Well, is the mass still positive or negative. If paths, for 50% of neutrons, are bending upwards against gravitational field, than this 50% of neutrons might be having negative mass while inside the crystal?

    Purely intuitively, I would say that "external" is not important here. Only thing that matters is relative, or internal. Whole electrodynamics and relativity are relative, so same principle should apply here. If one can make an asymmetrical setup, in which 50% neutrons with positive effective mass are ejected from crystal (horizontally in experiment, vertically in production), so that only 50% of neutrons with negative effective mass are left inside crystal, maybe he would get accelerations opposite to gravitational field.

    Possibly maybe, if neutrons can be made to fall upwards with effective mass, maybe protons and whole nuclei can be made to do the same?

    What do you think?

    Yeah, once mainstream science enters ufology, "cosmic tricksters" crowd is out. They'll have no audience. Pseudo-skeptics are OK, they just make you work harder.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
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  14. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    still too clumsy
    hmmmm....
    safe guess: nope, the laws of the universe are quite rigid, loop-holing one is impossible
    null theory, they behave angaist the laws of physics, because they have no propulsion, only appear to have
    yet they still had to ask a certain farmer for water instead of going back to their fucking planet! go figure....
    if you ever see someone claiming to be a whistleblower, they probally are just disinfo agents
     
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  15. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    pretty much my point, the shifting of manifestations follows your popular culture, impossible to explain in ETH
     
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  16. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    we shall see, i am sure that this fantasious time is never coming
     
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  17. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Honorable

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    This is a much trickier subject than you think – these neutrons only have negative effective mass within the crystal – not actual negative mass. Meaning, they behave as if they have negative mass within the crystal because of lattice interactions. But if you were to calculate the mass-energy content of the crystal from the outside as the neutrons pass through it, it would have higher mass-energy than the crystal without neutrons passing through it.

    So these experiments are only a proof of principle that the concept is in principle correct.

    In order to produce such effects for propulsion applications, you’d have to figure out a way to make the hull interact with the quantum vacuum aka the ambient field of spacetime in an analogous manner to the way that these neutrons are interacting with the crystalline lattice. I see no way to do that. Perhaps a unified field theory would provide a mechanism, but we just don’t know.

    That’s why Tajmar’s experiment with the electrolets is so interesting – the field effect in that scenario isn’t context-dependent; it’s objectively real external to the medium as well as internally. That’s also why the metamaterial approach is promising – you’re actually modifying the stress-energy tensor of the material, which by definition describes the gravitational field both inside and outside of the material.

    Intuition is, unfortunately, the least reliable gauge in theoretical physics. In these types of experiments the self-acceleration effect would only apply within the crystal, and not to the crystal itself. Nevertheless, it’s a wonderful proof that the reactionless field propulsion principle is sound. Manifesting it as an effect through the vacuum of space is an altogether different issue though.

    In principle, sure. You'd have to use uncharged particles, or else they'd scatter like crazy within any material medium. The issue of diffraction is a big problem though - you can't really make a crystal with significantly tighter lattice spacing than this type of crystal, so neutrons are about as heavy as you go. But that’s not the important problem.

    There’s still a major theoretical hurdle – apparently, making any material body that has positive rest mass, exhibit a net negative mass, is forbidden. At best you could approach close to zero, but never reach zero. That’s an issue that I hope to discuss with Dr. Manu Paranjape sometime. I’ll post about it if I get a chance to talk with him about this. He seems to think that a bubble of a hypothetical superfluid under high tension could have a local, internal positive mass-energy, and yet have an exterior effective field that behaves as negative gravitation and negative inertia. I have to go back and read his papers again though; it's been awhile.

    No, the skeptics make you work harder. The pseudo-skeptics just contaminate the debate by spreading ignorance and employing a host of logical fallacies, drenched in a quagmire of cynicism and vitriolic derision. For them, disbelief is a religion – nothing good comes from their ardent fanaticism.

    If a spider can build a spider web with their little pincers, then clearly they’re plenty dexterous.

    These wild proclamations of yours based on nothing but ignorance are really infuriating. Acting like an expert on xenobiology, when we have ample evidence within the Earth’s biosphere that your assessments are wrong, is beyond hubris. The dexterity of octopuses is another excellent example - they don't even have pincers and yet they can unscrew the lid of a jar from the inside:



    And they've been found to employ the rudimentary use of tools:



    Like you know anything about physics. Nearly all of our technology today would’ve been considered to be impossible only 100 years ago. And exotic yet well-proven phenomena like quantum teleportation, superconductivity, or even the common laser, provide the means to circumnavigate the classical laws of physics that reigned until the early 20th Century - they all represent “loopholes” around our earlier and more primitive understanding of physics.

    That process continues today. In fact I seriously doubt that it will ever end – science advances constantly over time, and human ingenuity triumphs over seemingly intractable problems constantly. It would be absurd to believe that suddenly, at today’s level of understanding, the progress of science will suddenly come to an abrupt halt.

    Your entire reasoning process here is based on that preposterous presumption – you literally can’t see one step forward.

    This is one of the most glaring flaws in your logic. Nothing behaves against the laws of physics. Everything that’s observable is empirically understandable, eventually. If our observations seem to be impossible, then we’ve simply failed to properly understand the applicable physics.

    We have radar-visual confirmation that these devices are physical – they often reflect radar signals, and they reflect and emit light as well. And yet they exhibit the precise flight characteristics that are predicted for gravitational field propulsion. So I have a viable hypothesis for how they work.

    You, on the other hand, have no explanation for how these physical objects move the way that they do. They are moving in defiance of inertia, and they do reflect radar signals – so you need an alternative explanation for how this is happening.

    But you have nothing. “It’s beyond our comprehension” and/or “it’s magic!” are not explanations. So the cosmic trickster notion can’t explain what we’re seeing, either with our eyes or with our instruments. So it’s not actually an explanation of anything.

    It appears to be, in fact, a new kind of New Age religion: “there are no intelligent alien life forms visiting the Earth from the billions of inhabitable worlds in the universe – it’s the cosmic trickster demon god toying with our perceptions and our instruments and leaving behind trace evidence just for kicks!” Give me a break.

    So you think they should fly back to their planet to gather a little water, instead of just asking a local for some? Remind me to never plan a trip with you.

    “Probably” doesn’t cut it – that’s lazy thinking. Every situation has to be carefully evaluated on its own merits, or you risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I know: thinking is hard. But it matters.

    Or people just employ descriptive words and comparisons based on the context of their time.

    For example, an ancient Greek farmer seeing a classical flying saucer, isn’t going to call it a “flying saucer.” That’s a modern idiom. He’s going to describe it in terms that he’s familiar with. Perhaps he’ll call it a “flying shield” because it’s round like a shield, or perhaps he’ll say that it appeared to be a large flying chariot wheel. He’s not saying that it was actually a flying chariot wheel – just as when somebody today uses the term “flying saucer,” they’re not saying that it was actually a large flying porcelain teacup saucer. In both instances, they’re just describing the shape based on what they’re familiar with.

    So when we have irrefutable empirical evidence of a material that couldn’t have been manufactured on Earth because the isotopic ratios and the precision arrangement of the atoms surpasses modern technological capabilities – then you’ll finally accept that we’re being visiting by technologies from other worlds?

    It would shock me to hear you say “yes” to that question. Because people with a deeply religious attachment to an idea, like the cosmic trickster hypothesis, always seem ready to throw out the facts, rather than change their views based on new evidence.
     
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  18. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet N=R^.fp.ne.f1.fi.fc.L

    Messages:
    1,428
    This a good thread!, Damn, So this is where everybody went...
     
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  19. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    3,282
    go figure....., look if there are no theories that explain even a hypothetical and hard to do way to make it work and its all mostly hypothetical, then there is no way to tell if its really real, as far as we know it's another scientific pitfall like N-rays and polywater
    i am talking about complex precision activities, like building a machine or writing, these examples you posted are easy
    it isn't as easy as you think, gravity is the weakest of the forces, yet we still haven't found a way to shield, create it
    i have told you like a thousand of times that you should research the work of john keel, he explains what is happening in the UFO phenomena better than anyone, alive today, its a shame how he is mostly forgotten about today and gave way to ETH cultists, in fact he was alerting way back in the 60's how dangerous and close minded the ETH movement is
    all religions (including new age) preach that humans are special and that they have hidden powers, i believe the exactly opposite: humans are sentient blood and flesh bags that somehow, despite the odds, haven't killed themselves yet
    din't you just say that flying from planet to planet is like going to the mall for them?!
    the golden ufological rule is: everyone is lying until proven otherwise
    still doesn't explains the airship wave of the 1890's, where people described and drew what was obviously high tech (for the time) airships
    also it doesn't restricts only to ancient times vs present, we also have the flying saucer to black triangles change
    most likely i would close all my accounts in all internet forums i am a menber at and never speak of UFOs ever again
     
  20. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Honorable

    Messages:
    470
    No you’re missing the point – the theory of operation is mathematically and theoretically and experimentally proven in principle now, and the AAV phenomenon demonstrates its practical application year after year. So we know that it can be done. We just don’t know how to build it ourselves yet. But we’re working on it, and we’ll figure it out eventually. Probably sooner than later.

    That’s why it’s called scientific progress – we routinely learn how to do things which were only possible in theory, but out of reach technologically. For example, Einstein thought that we’d never be able to detect gravitational waves because they’re so weak. But only 100 years later, they’re headline news. So even the greatest geniuses among our species routinely underestimate the rate of progress and future capabilities of human technology. And that's why it's so easy to believe in the march of scientific progress - it has a long and irrefutable track record of transforming the impossible but theoretically viable, into reality.

    Any intelligent life form will evolve the capability to build complex tools, just as we did, because the key adaptive advantage of intelligence is the capacity to build and use tools. So it’s logically self-evident that any type of intelligent creature, whether it looks like a humanoid, or a spider, or a slug, will have evolved formidable tool-making capabilities.

    You don’t need to shield gravity. And we generate gravitational fields all the time; they’re just too weak to measure. Every time you charge a capacitor or turn on an electromagnet, you generate a gravitational field. There’s a valid experimental proposal for creating a sufficiently powerful gravitational field in the lab to measure, using a pair of large superconductive magnets and a laser interferometer. It just hasn’t been funded because it would be pricey, and there’s little incentive to do it because a weak gravitational field can't really teach us anything useful.

    Keel’s cult of cosmic trickster fanatics can’t even explain the idea in a cogent manner, and they reject all analytical and scientific reasoning just as you do. So I see no reason to waste my time reading his stuff, just as I have no time to read L. Ron Hubbard's stuff - there’s not enough time in the day to keep up with all of the good, logical, reasonable scientific work being done.

    And yet you believe in an invisible omnipotent prankster god from some supernatural realm, that can magically manifest material objects in the sky that look and behave exactly like advanced field propulsion devices. So don’t try to pretend that you’re a pragmatic realist: you’re trying to make people believe in Loki, instead of credible empirical science.

    I think that’s likely. But when I’m at the mall and I get thirsty, I get a bottle of water from somebody at the food court – I don’t drive all the way back home for it. That would be stupid.

    Okay, prove that you’re not lying about the magical cosmic trickster demon. You can’t, because nothing in the entire canon of modern knowledge supports such an idea, while everything we know about reality refutes it.

    Those airships could’ve been built by humans at that time, so they’re not even in the same category as AAVs. And you’re assuming – with zero evidence, that those sightings were real, not hoaxes. Certainly the quaint stories of Victorian gentlemen landing in airships smoking cigars and tipping their top hats sound nothing like the modern AAV phenomenon. So you’re connecting two unrelated dots and thereby confusing yourself in the process.

    I assume that those stories were hoaxes, because I see no reason to take them seriously. Just as I see no reason to take fanciful tales of elves and fairies seriously: people make up stories all the time. And didn’t you just say: “the golden ufological rule is: everyone is lying until proven otherwise”? You’re directly contradicting yourself literally within a few seconds.

    New arrivals? New experimental military craft? Could be all kinds of reasonable explanations.

    But it certainly isn’t evidence of a cosmic trickster god. That doesn’t explain it. Why would Loki change the design of his magically manifested airships? If anything, the appearance of new objects in the skies indicates that something different is present, not the same deity changing tactics for no discernible reason.

    So it is a religion to you, then – you’re only interested in proselytizing about this subject as long as it appears to you to conform to your belief in an omnipotent supernatural being. Good to know.

    The rest of us just want rational answers, no matter what those answers turn out to be.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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