Gun's & Gun Control

Discussion in 'Present & Current Events' started by Creepy Green Light, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light I'd rather not care than to be aware

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    So I saw this on Reddit today. Anybody agree or disagree with what this guys suggestions are to prevent mass shootings?

    So what can we do?
    You'll find that redditors against most gun control aren't actually against all gun control. They are against ineffective laws that are doomed to failure, or stalking horses for further restrictions without any benefit. Rather than go into detail, I'll let this post from author, firearms trainer, competitor, former gun dealer, and all around awesome dude Larry Correia say it for me:

    An Opinion on Gun Control, repost

    With that in mind, here's my list of improvements that can be made:

    Identify the existing problems common with mass shootings and policies that failed
    First and foremost, can we all agree that the "make sure the crazy guy is the only one armed" plan isn't working? Whatever your feelings are on ccw, we have thoroughly established that "no guns allowed" policies aren't effective without actual security. And I mean airport and courthouse and the like security, not "hurr durr here's a sign"

    With that in mind, if you aren't going to harden up these areas, you need to let people defend themselves within the law, without risk of firing or expulsion.

    Second, identify what hasn't worked and will continue to fail:
    Strict gun control does not work

    Let's recap with the existing California laws that didn't stop San Bernardino:

    • Universal Background Checks.

    • Assault Weapons Ban

    • High Capacity Magazine Ban

    • Detachable magazine ban on rifles with certain cosmetic features.

    • Mandatory safety testing before purchasing a gun

    • Mandatory handgun registration

    • Mandatory long gun registration

    • Mandatory waiting periods after purchasing

    • One gun a month purchasing limits

    • Ban on open carry

    • Defacto ban against concealed carry through "may issue" laws

    • Total prohibition against pipe bombs
    Each and every one of those failed. The firearms used in San Bernardino were lawfully bought in California, California legal when bought, and then used in the crime. These laws failed utterly, the answer is not to make them Federal, but to recognize that they aren't ever going to stop these crimes. They are security theater and anyone proposing them should be held to task and made to explain why on earth they would suggest these as a response to a mass shooting when they haven't worked to prevent any.

    In particular Gun Free Zones are a total failure. Every School Shooting has been in a Gun Free Zone. The Aurora movie theater prohibited concealed carry. Florida prohibits concealed carry at nightclubs, which didn't stop the Orlando Pulse Shooting. Military installations prohibit concealed carry, yet that didn't stop the Ft Hood Shooter.

    Disarming good people does not make bad people harmless. It just ensures there are plenty of victims who cannot fight back.

    Third, we need to take action to fix the background check system.
    We need mandatory federal NICS standardization and compliance a la http://www.fixnics.org - the gun industry has been pushing this for years and it would have prevented the Charleston shooting, the Lafayette movie theater one, and the Navy Yard shooting, and the Texas Church shooting. Get the existing system working correctly and stop people slipping through the cracks. The background check system is only as good as the information put in it.

    • Dylan Roof, the Charleston shooter, was awaiting trial on drug charges. Had the information been entered into NICS correctly, he would have been denied his purchase

    • The Lafayette movie theater shooter had been denied a concealed carry permit due to a domestic violence complaint & arson violation.

    • The Navy Yard Shooter had been arrested multiple times previously for firearms violations, including shooting out a man's tires.

    • The Texas Church Shooter was courtmartialled from the Air Force and convicted of domestic violence. The Air Force failed to report him to NICS.
    Fourth there must be tougher enforcement of existing firearms violations
    It does no good to make gun control laws into felonies if you don't prosecute. If someone is stopped on a background check because they are a felon, put them in jail. Obama talked tough on this but didn't deliver. BUT neither has any president. This is a decades long problem, across all administrations.

    Nobody has ever cracked down on these crimes - you know how you hear about background checks stopping [x] number of felons from getting guns? Each of those is a slam dunk fed felony with prison time up to ten years and fines up to $250k. Seriously, check out the ATF Form 4473 that gets filled out every time a background check is performed at a gun store - break the law = 10 years in prison and up to $250k in fines. Guess what? They aren't enforced ever so they aren't effective deterrents - they are a toothless threat.

    Open NICS to the public

    Next open a public, smartphone accessible NICS portal to allow private sellers to prevent unlawful transfers - not perfect but better than nothing and a positive defense against trafficking charges. See the Coburn proposal for additional details

    Policy changes regarding dangerous persons with mental health issues.
    There need to be clear reporting policies for people who are a danger to themselves and others. This is tough because on one hand you don't want to prevent people getting help. On the other hand, Holmes told his therapist about wanting to kill people before Aurora and she sent his journal by snail mail instead of getting the cops out there.

    After Sandy Hook in 2013 Rep Murphy proposed HR2646 that would make positive changes in getting people treatment and stopping them before they become dangerous. A version was finally made law last year.

    Stopping things before they start
    Violence interruption work such as what Dr Gary Slutkin does - Transcript of "Let's treat violence like a contagious disease" - this has worked everywhere it's been tried from Chicago to Iraq.

    See also Richmond California's efforts which led to a 2/3 reduction of murders - Did this city bring down its murder rate by paying people not to kill? - stop likely offenders before they turn into murderers by making them productive members of society. This involves police work and community outreach.

    Finally, Law Enforcement & Authorities MUST DO THEIR JOB.
    Many of these shooters have prior run ins with law enforcement before they act.

    The Stoneman Douglass School Shooting was a failure of law enforcement, top to bottom. The FBI was given specific information about the shooter months before it took place, including information about his firearms ownership, social media postings and more. They did not follow up.

    The Broward County Sheriffs had been to his residence 39 times prior to the shooting.

    "See Something, Say Something" only works if law enforcement does something.

    Beyond these suggestions
    Removing root causes of crime, depression & more would reduce violence across the board. The usual free healthcare, better mental health overall, after school programs etc - I don't think anyone disagrees on those. Decriminalize pot to remove the profit motives for killing each other, and free up resources for actual police work.

    This is a start that would have stopped multiple mass shootings.
     
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  2. spacecase0

    spacecase0 earth human

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    I still don't know why they keep passing laws to force criminals to only buy unregistered and untrackable guns
    they are the stupidest laws ever
    I just don't know why law makers don't get that laws don't apply to criminals

    letting anyone that passes a background check conceal carry a gun would be a good solution
    then mass shooters just don't get that far when they start

    flagging people that are mentally ill seems like a good idea, but lately people seem to be trying to use the mentally ill thing to crush political opponents. Though there has to be some fix to that issue

    as far as legalizing things to take the funding away,
    they failed to keep alcohol illegal
    the same will eventually apply to much more
     
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  3. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    REALLY? That caught me by surprise. Like, they were legal?Jeez.
    Maybe they tried to first limit the size, length and features of pipe bombs first - you know, no bayonet lugs and so forth and then went for the total ban, which apparently didn't work either.
     
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  4. Captain Tinkle

    Captain Tinkle Honorable

    Messages:
    164
    Wrong. Strict gun laws do work.

    I am pro gun ownership and I think laws in the UK are to strict. You can not even buy a replica firearm without a performers licence.

    However anyone can apply for a licence from the Police. They perform background checks along with a visit to your home to ensure you have a weapon cabinet that is securely bolted in a safe space in your home that only you have access to and is hidden away from view.

    Now [In England and Wales] there are 138,728 people certificated to hold firearms and they own 435,383 weapons. There are 574,946 shotgun certificates which cover 1.4 million shotguns. Yet we do not have mass shootings on a weekly basis. The sort of weapons you are able to own in the UK it would be difficult to commit such a crime with then. Primarily because we cannot buy military grade weapons like in the United States.

    We also have the benefit of being a island nation. Illegal firearms are more hard to come by due to our geography.

    The reason as to why strict gun laws do not work in the United States is that the United States is to far gone with the types of weapons you are allowed to own. Trying to enact such laws would be impossible without mass revolt from the populace.

    Really hate that arguement the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. That is a case of treating the "symptom not the disease".
     
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  5. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light I'd rather not care than to be aware

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    Really? Look up the gun murder rate in Chicago. Gun laws fail miserably all the way around. The new moron Governor of NJ just made millions of people criminals by the swipe of his pen. Magazine capacity is now 10 rounds. Huh? How does that make any sense and what does it accomplish? Nothing.
     
  6. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    477
    Well, you deal with the problem you got. We are a large nation with a large population and a history of weapons ownership and millions of them already in circulation and what works for the UK ain't gonna work here.

    I suppose if I could pick from the list I would like to see a more comprehensive and effective background check. I've dealt with NICS many times and have no problem with it. I also have few real problems with the gun control laws I must contend with and I live in New York one of the most restrictive states in the nation. What I do have a problem with is fully complying with laws only to find that it has all been squandered. I can think of a couple of instances - Texas and Florida - in which lives could have been saved had it simply been implemented as intended and wasn't. Is it a perfect solution - no. Don't care about back & forth finger pointing, would just like to see it be more effective. Most people who beat that drum have no experience with it. I do.

    Back to the UFOs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  7. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light I'd rather not care than to be aware

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    Agreed :)
     
  8. Captain Tinkle

    Captain Tinkle Honorable

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    That is what I said:

    The reason as to why strict gun laws do not work in the United States is that the United States is to far gone with the types of weapons you are allowed to own. Trying to enact such laws would be impossible without mass revolt from the populace.
     
  9. Captain Tinkle

    Captain Tinkle Honorable

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    164
    Again reread my post....

    There is no easy way to solve the misuse of weapons in the United States.

    Guaranteed though with the rise of the liberal movement and these millennials, eventually your rights along with my own in my country will slowly be taken away.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018 at 5:20 AM
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  10. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    Piers Morgan tried to put the British point of view where it didn't belong and he was laughed right out of there.

    Take them away and within a year they would be back as the law abiding would be ducks on a pond for the crims.
     
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  11. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    Well Captain, I actually agree with you in general. One point though - the National Firearms Acts of 1934 and 1986 were significant and really did eliminate the acquisition of 'military grade' weapons. At one time you could buy a Thompson submachine gun at a general store. Gangland violence in Chicago doesn't hold a candle to what it used to back when you had men running around with BARs, etc. Lee Harvey Oswald ordered a rifle through the mail and it was sent to a post office box with a fake name. These federal laws set up the federal firearms licensing system and when you consider the amount of firearms and people overall it is effective.

    States further regulate as do local jurisdictions. To purchase a firearm in Manhattan the rules are (or at least were) virtually the same as you have described in the UK, right down to the inspection of the safe. My pistol license isn't valid in the five boroughs.

    Honestly, if I could snap my fingers and make all AK and AR style rifles vanish I would. They serve no real purpose IMO. They are military-ish because people want them to be, think they are Special Forces. Most I've seen can't shoot worth a damn and these expensive rifles and accessories just sit around. But eliminating a particular style would just shift the problem to something else, like electricity seeking the easiest path to ground.

    I can say this. Everything I own is in compliance with every law on the books and I own a commercial safe. Nobody but me has access to any of them. Responsible ownership is step 1 and it can't be regulated. Shootings have happened because someone took an unsecured weapon away from a careless owner. Lock that shit UP. Also, every single firearm purchase IS immediately screened by NICS. All of them. Not private sales, and not some gun shows but the overwhelming majority are. What I am saying is that since the system is already in place it should have it's flaws corrected - there are recent examples in which it would have prevented loss of life. Easier said than done, you get into privacy issues, special interest groups, stupidity and soon you're careening down that slippery slope. So again, in that regard we agree in that it's probably unfixable in the foreseeable future
     
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  12. Captain Tinkle

    Captain Tinkle Honorable

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    Just because he is British he is still entitled to an opinion. Amazingly the World doesn't revolve around the United States....

    As I said before it is impossible to take weapons away in the United States. Mass revolt would occur.
     
  13. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    Opinion yes of course but to spill it into American mainstream was folly.

    I think the world does indeed look up to America and has for many years. Ever since I was a lad it has been the American way of life that is viewed as freest and has come to the aid in many conflicts. I'm proud of my cousins and I know their names from my line who settled there. Embrace it.
     
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  14. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    No problem here listening to another point of view.
     
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  15. Captain Tinkle

    Captain Tinkle Honorable

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    Part of the benefit of "freedom of speech". Some may believe his views were "folly" but others may agree with him in the mainstream media. Just because someone doesn't agree with an opinion doesn't make it wrong. Personally I think Morgan is a numpty.

    Quite a bold claim. What makes you think the World looks up to the United States?

    I mean I love the United States but generally in my experience the opinion is rather negative.
     
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  16. Captain Tinkle

    Captain Tinkle Honorable

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    Responsible gun owners like yourself are not the ones anyone needs to worry about. It is the idiots in society that ruin it for everyone else.

    I mean you are right, AKs etc... serve no real purpose. Fired one myself, along with a few other weapons and they really are a spray and pray weapon! In a fully licenced firing range though, I cannot see the problem with them being available. It is people owning such types of weapons I do not understand.... Defence from the Government seems to be the general answer...
     
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  17. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    In this case it was wrong. Freedom of speech unfortunately doesn't travel well into foreign lands. All well and good for its kith on home soil. I too think Piers is foolish, proven by his attempts to persuade a nation to listen, when he hasn't experienced being a national.

    Trail blazers are always held in the highest regard. Of course negativity will come as our kind all want to be first but it is what it is and America lead the world in ideals. The example of many cultures and how they settle is a great lesson for all. Good lesson being learnt right now and look who is cutting the path.

    Fantastic golf courses too. Turtle Creek, Florida, beat it within a week with lazer like tee to green action.
     
  18. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

    Messages:
    477
    True there are any number of gen-yoo-wine lunatic militia types that think The Government is coming for them. If they were to do that then they'd find out what real 'military grade' weapons are all about.

    From what I've seen ARs are popular among the younger crowd with guys that have served - it's familiar to them. There are 3-gun competitions that are fun and they play a part in that. Some think they are for home defense, and I can't say I agree with that but it depends on what home you're talking about. If I lived out West I might have one too for that purpose. Not in a heavily populated area. By and large I see guys that buy them to trick them out - the mindset isn't too much different from hotrodding cars or bikes. I chuckle to myself when I sit down at a 100 yard range with a 75 or 100 year old rifle with no scope, laser, holographic sight whatever and shoot better than they do. 99.999% are harmless. Unfortunately it's the small percentage that aren't that the problem comes from.
     
  19. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light I'd rather not care than to be aware

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    Agreed. And after watching how unhinged, violent, vicious & childish the left is - is the reason why now I vote blindly for the Republicans. Just a couple of days ago I was talking to my mother about the elections next month and what she said is true "You better vote Republican all the way down or you're not going to have a country any more."
     
  20. spacecase0

    spacecase0 earth human

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    497
    here is a story
    this was in the early 1980s
    it was time to to go sleep, I was a little kid, about 8pm
    the front door rattled hard, someone was trying to get in.
    about 20 seconds later a gunshot rang out, and I mean close by.
    I went flat on the floor to avoid getting hit
    about 45 seconds later 5 shots at a distance
    back then law enforcement was about 2 hours away
    now in the same area it is somewhere between 30 minuets and 2.5 hours (likely the same as it was then, only I know the range better)
    after that incident I found out that my mom fired the first shot, she was ready to protect her children and was testing the gun to make sure it still worked.
    the person at the front door apparently decided that an armed target was not worth it
    and it would seem that they were a bit upset at the entire thing by the gunfire that they followed up with
    have had many discussions with others about this
    would seem that the popular response is that I should have died in the attack and that the police would have found this person and locked them up.
    would seem that they really got my point of view and still thought I should be dead.

    and no one seems to answer the real question here,
    what is the benefit of outsourcing your violence ? (why call police ever ?)
    after i ask that, they never talk to me ever again.

    and my real question that no one ever answers, (likely due to lack of data)
    if aliens invade earth, what caliber will take them out ?
     
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