Intelligent alien life: astronomy, astrobiology, and the age of inhabitable worlds

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by Thomas R. Morrison, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Yes this universe is full of alien civilizations which many are highly intelligent and advanced in their technology...

    Where are you getting this god-like entity from?...

    ...
     
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  2. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Adept

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    Do you have a reference for those claims? Quantum electrodynamics and the nuclear weak force work perfectly well in 4D spacetime, last I checked.

    Well, as I pointed out last time, Itzhak Bars has proposed a viable 6D model by constraining it with a specific gauge symmetry, so the two higher dimensions could be "hiding" in a sense. And his model resolves the position-momentum uncertainty beautifully.

    So I don't rule out higher dimensions, I just don't take them very seriously because I've seen no compelling evidence or even theoretical arguments to indicate that they're real. If that changes, then so will my views on the subject.

    But for now, it looks to me like many people were so impressed with Einstein's unification of space and time into a 4D manifold, that they wanted to jump on the bandwagon and be hailed as geniuses too, so they're trying to incorporate more dimensions on top of his work. But that's unoriginal and derivative thinking, imo. Progress generally happens by striking out in new directions in unexpected ways, as Stanton Friedman correctly points out. Not by trying to replicate somebody else's greatest hits, y'know?

    I think that a lot of people are very prone to favor this kind of idea (you certainly seem to favor it, don't you?), because it makes for great science fiction, and endless, entirely baseless speculation. It's basically all we ever hear about on The Paracast, for example.

    You read the opening post, right?

    There are over 40 billion warm Earth-like planets in our galaxy alone. More than 40 billion trillion in the observable universe alone, and we now know that the observable universe is but a speck in the entire universe (see the results of the Baryon Oscillation Spectroscopic Survey collaboration). And on average, they're >3 billion years older than the Earth.

    I don't understand how anyone can look at those real empirical facts, and others, like the ubiquity of water and organic molecules throughout the universe, and the fact that life appeared here on the Earth almost as soon as the surface temperature was cool enough to support organic life...and not conclude that the odds of intelligent alien life in our galaxy are extraordinary high, and that a 3-billion-year head start should be more than enough time to find a physical solution to FTL travel and implement it technologically. I mean, we already have the basic theoretical argument laid out for FTL travel (Bondi, Forward, Alcubierre, etc). Trying to argue that 3 billion years is insufficient time to figure out rapid interstellar transport seems as crazy to me as people in the 1950s saying that we'll "never" be able to get to the Moon.
     
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  3. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Well said 1963, ufology is a complicated field indeed, one which I continue to immerse myself into more and more, you and others have fair bit more knowledge in this field than I without a doubt...Whilst I agree with you and the OP and the OP's undeniable statistics are quite revealing, our universe ought to be teeming with life of all sorts, shapes, and sizes and a wide range of intelligence as well, primitives like us and others millions of years more advanced...

    That being said, I also do not discount other dimensions and universes, it is possible these exist and possible lifeforms are traversing dimensions to arrive here...I personally think just as this universe is full of life, so is reality itself on all levels and forms, whatever those may be...Its kind of a dead end discussion at this point in our human scientific development though, its nice to think about for some but unreachable in understanding...So because of this naturally attributed 'dead end' the theorists behind the interdimensional wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff decided it should be used to cover just about all paranormal and extraterrestrial phenomena across the board...Perhaps this is a method being employed to distract and divert attention away from finding out the facts, with these various groups of followers just being used to progress an agenda...Who knows...

     
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  4. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Adept

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    Paul Kimball mentioned my name four times on this week's episode of After the Paracast, because I frequently advocate for the ETH on the forums, so apparently I'm some kind of target now. Here's my rebuttal to his criticisms, which touches on a lot of the topics we've been discussing in this thread:

    I listened to this weekend’s After the Paracast because people told me that Paul Kimball mentioned me by name (four times, iirc) while basically ripping on the ETH again (or at least, simultaneously calling it a viable hypothesis while slinging around slurs like “space aliens” again). And then after misrepresenting my position (I never said that I have any idea where these things are coming from, and obviously the exact origin is inherently indeterminable, but they don't seem to be earthly technology so "extraterrestrial" is the best assessment that we can make), and generally belittling it for 20-30 minutes, Gene and Paul agreed that we shouldn’t talk about it anymore. Hm. How is that fair?

    So I’m forced to make a rebuttal. Primarily because Paul accused me of not understanding the difficulty of interstellar travel, which is an absurd thing to say to somebody who’s been studying theoretical physics for 40 years with an eye to understanding what I observed as a kid, and also the subject of interstellar spaceflight in general.

    We’ve already spoken at length about the subject of interstellar travel here on the forums, and I started a thread here that gets into the details at some length, where people can find links to the relevant academics physics papers on this subject and lots of general discussion about it.

    The empirical evidence and supporting logic of my position are very simple and compelling, and I’ve repeated most of this many times:

    1.) We know now via the Kepler mission that roughly 20% of the 200 billion stars in the Milky Way are Sun-like stars, and roughly 22% of those are orbited by a warm Earth-like planet in the habitable zone, which yields 8.8 billion potentially habitable planets orbiting Sun-like stars in the Milky Way alone. That’s a vast number, but it’s much larger if we also consider that habitable planets could exist around other types of stars as well, and many moons may also be habitable. And there are 1-2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe, so the lower bound on potentially living planets is at least 8.8-17.6 billion trillion within optical range. We also know from the Baryon Oscillation Spectroscopic Survey collaboration, that the observable universe is merely a spec of the entire universe, which may in fact be infinite in extent, to the best of our present knowledge.

    2.) And we now know that the average age of these potentially habitable earth-like planets orbiting Sun-like stars is about 3.1 billion years older than our Earth, thanks to this intriguing 2015 study. Let that sink in: the average habitable planet like ours has a 3-billion-year head start. So if some skeptical scientist tells you “we won’t have a field propulsion solution to interstellar spaceflight in a million years!” then just ask “how about 100 million years, or a billion?” Because that’s the kind of head start that a planet with a similar evolutionary profile would have on us. If you assume that an intelligent alien species survives that long - and I think that with a few hundreds of millions of potential intelligent species to consider some very well could, then it’s unthinkable to presume that they wouldn’t have solved the technical challenges of practical interstellar spaceflight within that kind of time frame. We already have a theoretical model for the kind of field propulsion system that's required, and we're only about 1-2 centuries into the industrialization age.

    3.) But apparently Gene and Paul don’t think it’s that big of a challenge after all, because they both seem to think that the kinds of devices being observed outperforming our top military interceptor jets using what appears to be the kind of gravitational field propulsion system that’s required for superluminal spaceflight, is only maybe 50 years away for us. So which is it, guys? Is interstellar spaceflight impossible even for extraterrestrial civilizations that are on average 3 billion years ahead of us, or is it easy and just around the corner? You can’t have it both ways.

    4.) Paul suggested that the craft we’re seeing could be some kind of projection that appears on radar and often emits artificial light. I don’t rule that out – a civilization billions of years ahead of us may well have that level of technological capability. My point is that it comes down to relative probability. Which is more likely: that a civilization would send probes to other worlds just like we do today (but across interstellar instead of interplanetary distances), or that they’d be able to project a solid kind of object that looks like a physical device, across light-years of interstellar space? The former seems a lot easier and more probable to me, but I think that both things may be happening (and other things that we may not even be able to comprehend at our level of advancement).

    We also hear a lot of talk about “they” as if we’re talking about one civilization sending devices into our airspace. But clearly what we’re seeing with the empirical numbers from our top astronomers, is a model of a universe likely teeming with life, and probably a lot of intelligent life in the mix. So we should expect that civilizations at all levels of advancement would be exploring the universe, just as we will do when we devise the requisite level of technology. Some of them will have had interstellar spaceflight capability for a relatively short time, by the time they send probes or craft our way. Others on the far end of the spectrum may have incomprehensible levels of technology to facilitate interstellar exploration using wormholes or something even more exotic. So it seems reasonable to presume that some of the sightings we’re seeing are just advanced interstellar drones made of metals and other readily comprehensible technologies, while others may involve quantum engineering that defies our current understanding of the concept of “a machine.” It seems likely that all such possibilities and more are happening at the same time.

    Gene and Paul seemed to offer an alternative explanation: that God or some god-like intelligence is somehow manifesting physical devices for our benefit – something that we can wrap our minds around, to make some furtive level of contact with us. Could be. But where is the origin of that intelligence? We don’t see any compelling evidence that the Earth is inhabited by such an intelligence (unless you consider hauntings, as Paul suggests, which sounds crazy to me – why the heck would some essentially omnipotent form of terrestrial intelligence only make itself known to us by taunting people walking around in empty houses at night? Such a proposition seems ludicrous, prima facie). So they would be, by definition, extraterrestrial in origin.

    And I have to point out another error that Paul made on the show, when he suggested that the seemingly alien devices being reported by witnesses and radar operators appear to mimic the alien craft depicted in 1950s science fiction movies. That's not what happened Paul. The alien craft in those movies were modeled after what UFO witnesses were reporting, not the other way around.

    And the historical evidence that we've been visited sporadically for centuries or millennia+, isn't evidence against the ETH; it's evidence in favor of it. It's not a recently phenomenon because the universe is evidently teeming with intelligent life and probably has been for billions of years. They've come by to check us out from time to time, apparently. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

    Then there are other possible alternative exotic explanations; interdimensional visitors for example. There’s only one problem with this idea: there isn’t a single whiff of empirical evidence that alternate dimensions or realities actually exist. So that’s invoking a wildly speculative and non-evidentiary explanation to explain a mystery – how can anyone consider that to be “progress” in our understanding? It’s not. It’s just a Hail Mary wild supposition based on zero foundational evidence. It’s not impossible, granted, but lots of things fall into the “not impossible” category. So why even go there when we have ample empirical evidence to support a model of the universe that’s rife with life, and the majority of that life has a 3 billion-year lead over us on the biological and technological evolution spectrum?

    In parting, Paul implores us to focus not on the nature or origin of the source of these witness reports, but rather on “the message.” What message is that, Paul? Because the only message that I can see, with sightings of exotic aerial vehicles that can accelerate like a bullet and hover silently with no observable reaction force, is “we are not alone, and we are vastly outmatched technologically.”

    To each his own. Actually I don't really care where these things are coming from. I want to figure out how to build one. If other people want to figure out what it all means, that's fine with me: let us know what you come up with. I'm a pragmatist. I think that anything we observe can teach us something about physics, which can lead to major technological advancements that benefit all of mankind. So that's why I'm interested in all of this: I can think of few scientific ambitions greater than a viable method of rapid manned interstellar spaceflight, and if it is only 50 years away as you gentlemen suggest, then I want to do everything that I can to help accelerate that process. And right now, the AAV phenomenon is our best lead for clues and new levels of understanding that could get us to that goal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018 at 5:44 PM
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  5. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    there are a bunch of alien civilizations however i doubt any have FTL travel, they are stuck just like we
     
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  6. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    gene and his gang believes in the co-creation model, in wich the entity needs us humans to exist, i believe in the theater model where we are just observers of a incomprehemsible circus
     
  7. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    the "life in the universe" part is fine to me, what i dont believe is FTL travel, it seems to break all the laws of physics and even the theoritical models you cited like alcubierre need extremelly exotic types of mater that are very hard to make
     
  8. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    paul seems to be a idiot, though there is something i agree with him and disagree with you, its this: "And I have to point out another error that Paul made on the show, when he suggested that the seemingly alien devices being reported by witnesses and radar operators appear to mimic the alien craft depicted in 1950s science fiction "
    welll i suggest you look into the research of Martin S. Kottemeyer, he despite being a skeptic has proved that everthing people see has a precessor in sci-fi, wich suggests a trickster entity using shapes we can identify and understand
    and there is another problem: why is there so much variety in Ce3 reports? greys are only the tip of the iceberg, we have from the "common ones" reptilians and blondes to everthing from robots to goblins to literal clowns to things that look like the michellin man!
     
  9. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Adept

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    Once I dug into Greg Bishop’s descriptions of the co-creation hypothesis, I realized that Gene and others like Paul Kimball have co-opted the name of Greg’s area of interest (which is actually just a field along the lines of perceptual psychology) and redefined it entirely to suit their narrative. Greg isn’t offering an alternative hypothesis to the ETH; he’s simply exploring the limits and ambiguities and faulty psychological interpretations of eyewitness reports in general.

    Gene and others have twisted this around into an entirely distinct model, where humans seeing ufos are actually witnessing some kind of supernaturally generated hallucination that only appears to be a physical aerial device. In truth, they argue, some unspecified intelligence (preferably non-extraterrestrial, and perhaps “interdimensional” in origin) is using some kind of physical hologram or mind control to make contact with humanity in a manner that we can comprehend: intentionally mimicking our expectations of alien contact.

    I call this the “intrepid Solaris” model, where some imponderable superadvanced consciousness is reaching out to us across vast distances of space or, as Gene prefers, across dimensions or realities.

    I don’t rule this out entirely – perhaps once every 1,000 or 10,000 years, some essentially deific form of alien intelligence might make contact with somebody in this fashion. Or not. But my point is simple: which is more likely – drones from other planets or some outlandishly advanced entity rewriting the laws of physics just to appear to be what we seem to be seeing, i.e., solid aerial objects that like to evade our top performance jet interceptors.

    This specific subject is the primary focus of my life-long research into theoretical physics, so I’m fairly intimately aware of the progress and skepticism surrounding this idea.

    Back in 1994 Miguel Alcubierre simply explored a metric solution for gravitational field propulsion; he didn’t try to figure out how such a thing might be possible, other than relying on the earlier work on negative matter propulsion by Hermann Bondi and Robert L. Forward. And sure, if negative inertia/gravitation matter actually existed, then we could start working on building such a system today. But by all present indications, it doesn’t exist.

    That’s as far as the common viewpoint goes, so the idea is rejected on that basis.

    However, that’s a superficial position to take, because gravitational field propulsion doesn’t require negative mass after all. What’s actually required is a negative value of the Einstein stress-energy-momentum tensor, and rest mass is only one variable in that tensor matrix. Other factors, in particular the stress components which can manifest either pressure (positive stress) or tension (negative stress) comprise three of the other variables in the tensor.

    This provoked a brilliant relativist named Manu Parajape to explore these components and their gravitational significance in a pair of academic papers that he co-authored with his grad students in 2013 and 2014. This one is particularly noteworthy:
    “Negative mass bubbles in de Sitter space-time,” Mbarek and Paranjape, Physical Review D, 2014

    What they found was ground-breaking. First, they found that the positive energy theorem (the basis of the theoretical objection to negative stress-energy-momentum states in the context of general relativity) doesn’t apply to our de Sitter universe, so those conditions are physically viable after all (which in retrospect seems obvious, because the dark energy effect is real and it falls into this class of solutions, i.e. negative/repulsive gravitation). But they developed the idea further, and found that a bubble of matter with the properties of a perfect fluid can be endowed with sufficient surface tension to generate an effective negative mass / repulsive gravity condition. So if we can engineer a body of matter to exploit the tension components of the stress-energy tensor as they describe, then we could couple that to ordinary matter and produce a free-fall acceleration in any direction that we wished for as long as like. And this approach, gravitational field propulsion, is the only known theoretical model for producing FTL spaceflight without any time dilation and no upper limit to the effective velocity.

    It also just so happens to perfectly conform to the performance characteristics commonly reported by ufo witness since at least the 40s if not earlier: silent reactionless levitation, dramatic high accelerations without any subjective g-forces, supersonic flight without a sonic boom, and cross-medium travel.

    In fact the recent statements made by the people involved with the TTSA and the AATIP indicate that the military has recovered a fragment of a photonic metamaterial made of atomically aligned layers of bismuth and magnesium (not Linda Moulton Howe’s sample of industrial residue, but rather something we haven’t yet seen in the public sector) which allegedly loses some of its rest mass under exposure to THz radiation.

    I thought that was an odd but intriguing idea, so I looked into it. And it turns out that the Helmholtz stress-energy tensor which best describes the energy and pressure with such materials, includes a pair of terms (electrostriction and magnetostriction) which represent negative pressure (tension) terms within photonic metamaterials when the internal structure is arranged properly.

    So it seems that we’re seeing a new frontier for metric engineering via quantum mechanics and advanced materials engineering, that may well yield the requisite characteristics for a field propulsion device that can mimic the exotic and eerily consistent flight characteristics that ufo witness continue to report all around the globe.

    But even if all of that is wrong, the recent statistical and astronomical analysis of the distribution and age of the other potentially habitable earth-like worlds in our galaxy, arrived at an average estimated age more than 3 billion years older than the Earth. So, given that we already see a viable theoretical mechanism for producing a gravitational field propulsion system and we’re only about two centuries into the technological age, I think it would be ludicrous to assert that such a thing will not be developed on Earth sometime within the next 3 billion years, given what we know today. In which case, it’s all but absolutely certain that countless other civilizations devised such technology eons ago. And that’s what we’re seeing operating in our airspace from time to time, and toying with our top fighter jocks much as a child toys with a kitten using a laser pointer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018 at 10:42 PM
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  10. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Honorable

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    I have never seen a thread with so much text. Is it a sign of higher intelligence ?

    It will take me until next weekend to get trough all of this and reply.

    Im a slow reader.

    And type fewer words.
     
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  11. Gold_Fish

    Gold_Fish Cold blooded

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    What do u think?
     
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  12. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Honorable

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    I've only read the headline so far. Apologies to all here :D

    And Hi Ms. Fish Kissing001
     
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  13. Gold_Fish

    Gold_Fish Cold blooded

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    Hello Mr. AlterEgo :)
     
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  14. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    It is a sign of higher typing speed.
     
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  15. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    here we have to ignore the idea of plausibility and instead answer a simple question: does this model explains all the bizzare high strangeness anomalies reported over the years? if the answer is no or maybe then we need to make another hypothesys
     
  16. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    currently it all speculation, so unless somebody reproduces that effect in a laboratory i am still a skeptic
    also you forgot to answer a question in my previous post:
    this along with the bizzare behaviour of ufonauts in some reports (the infamous space pancakes along with the jean himgley ufo fairy experiences fall in this category) seems to not make sense in the ETH model
     
  17. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    yep i have to agree, i have heard that thomas is a real scientist so the walls of text makes sense due to his job
    yes :p
     
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  18. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    or a sign of possibly un-healthy knowledge about the ufo phenomena (at least when talking about my posts)
     
  19. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    I absolutely agree, all this fantasy talk of everything being interdimensional is unhealthy talk and not constructive to understanding any phenomenon but in its stead discourages actual investigation and research...It's akin to telling all scientists not to do anymore research, it's all God and that's all we need to know, well, we don't need a new dark ages...

    ...
     
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  20. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    thats not what i was trying to say
    the interdimensional theory solves all the problems with ETH
     

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