Intervening

nivek

As Above So Below
Some say god has been proven to be real through intervention in singular lives which then as a result affects thousands or millions...For instance, Mohammed of Islam is used as an example, also Joan of Arc is used as an example...If this is true, does it seem this god is very naive to assume or hope that the individual's life intervened will do the right thing, or should I say do what god wills?....

Who is to say that these and other individuals throughout history who claim that god interfered in their lives are doing exactly what they claim god told them to do or they are acting as they think best...

I've also heard people say Mother Teresa was touched by god, but honestly I don't accept that, she was a very selfish and self centered woman to me...There are times in history that appear to show that when there was no so-called interference it would have made the world a much safer and peaceful place...
 

SOUL-DRIFTER

Life Long Researcher
People want a higher being as God to have a semi active role in their lives or the life of this Earth.
Frankly I believe the picture is just way to big for that, and for God to do so, would diminish the reaping value of our actions whatever they may be.
Experience is the mother of all wisdom.

I do believe intervention has taken place at times....but not by God.
And no not the Devil either. I do not believe in a Devil anyway.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
I believe in the Holographic universe idea, the more I read about it, the more it makes sense to me.
I believe there is a cosmic oneness to reality. When we get past our earthly selves, and if we could see the nature of reality, i think it would be just as the holographic universe describes.
When a christian says they felt the presence of God, I believe them, only I believe they felt the presence of reality which there understanding interprets as God, Likewise when a Buddhist says he has experienced enlightenment, it is the same reality as the christian, just understood as the Buddhist knowledge permits.
The holographic universe ties in so much, it makes spiritual experiences, and even psychic experiences quite rational and easily explained. And them we have D.M.T.
Which is still on my to do list but as I am drug tested at work, sadly it wont be any time soon. But from what I have read about D.M.T. It is a shortcut to experience the true nature of reality.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
There is a brilliant doco on Aussie Netflix about it. it really does seem different, and has had its fair share of scientific study with some very interesting results. The super short version is, most hallucinogens trip folks out to any one of a million different experiences depending on who you are and where you minds at. D.M.T. however seems to almost always take folks to a very very similar place, with a very much reoccurring theme. It occurs naturally in darn near every living thing but seems to have no real purpose. The thinking is that it may be the GOD drug, the drug that is triggered when we have an near death experience. The suspicion is that it for that short time lets us glimpse the nature of reality, or perhaps at least just a tiny bit. It really does appear to be a very different ballgame. Taken clinically it has a very rapid onset, and short duration, and fast recovery, maybe 15 mins start to finish. However users have reported a sense of timelessness while there. They could have been there for days for all they can tell. Interestingly many native cultures have learned to trigger a concoction we know as ayahuasca. But they hae managed to somehow change the effect to a much longer experience when brewed naturally. However D.M.T. is at the root of ayahuasca
 

iwant2believe2

Honorable
D.M.T...I do not need. My brain is hard wired for it. I experience it but am unable to express it. I can't communicate it. I don't understand the experience. These experiences that folks take drugs or extreme mediation practices to have are naturally occurring to me. Why that is, I don't know. I have often wished that I were crazy to boot...schizo or some other delusional psychosis...then maybe I wouldn't be driven to question every single thing, to turn over every stone, search every path...then I could believe in one thing even if the thing I believed in was false or delusional. I would be at peace within my own mind. Now, you know the reason behind my forum name.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
I can't tell 22 if you enjoy your ability or not, from the outside you seem fortunate to be able to do it, but then I have not experienced what you have. But I wish I could have experiences like that, I get tiny, fleeting glimpses over the years. Just enough to make me want more, but not enough to satisfy what I need or maybe want. But as I get older, I realize that popping pills, and smoking dope, excessive drinking, all of that stuff, is really just pointless. In a way its sad because at least when you believed it would help you could kid yourself into enjoying the experience. But I still long for some profound experience to give me hope that there is something more to all this. That's why I gravitate towards the D.M.T. But I just can't risk it while I work here.
But I would love to wait till mid summer, walk far from anywhere and take some at sunrise over a beautiful view.
From what I have read the experience for most people is life changing.
 

iwant2believe2

Honorable
I can't tell 22 if you enjoy your ability or not, from the outside you seem fortunate to be able to do it, but then I have not experienced what you have. But I wish I could have experiences like that, I get tiny, fleeting glimpses over the years. Just enough to make me want more, but not enough to satisfy what I need or maybe want. But as I get older, I realize that popping pills, and smoking dope, excessive drinking, all of that stuff, is really just pointless. In a way its sad because at least when you believed it would help you could kid yourself into enjoying the experience. But I still long for some profound experience to give me hope that there is something more to all this. That's why I gravitate towards the D.M.T. But I just can't risk it while I work here.
But I would love to wait till mid summer, walk far from anywhere and take some at sunrise over a beautiful view.
From what I have read the experience for most people is life changing.

I might enjoy it if it gave me some insight into understanding it. For example, I once experienced floating in an endless sea with no land in sight and storm clouds high above. I felt the waves beneath me and the spray of water as wind blew them about. Then I began to sense the depth beneath me...a bottomless abyss. That sensation though quickly became the sensation that I was not suspended above a bottomless, empty abyss but that it was something so immeasurably full that I could feel the intense density of it. Then that sensation led to the sensation that I was not suspended in the dense abyss but was part of it. At that point, everything faded and I became one with everything. There was no degree of separation between myself, the waves, the sea, the abyss below nor the sky above. There was only one. Then the experience ended as abruptly as it began. I suddenly felt so empty that it brought strangled tears. What insight did this spontaneous, beautiful experience give? I was none the wiser. I wasn't enlightened. I was...empty. Which is real? The experience of being one or the empty finality of being a singular spark that will someday be extinguished into nothingness? If the experiences don't bring me some understanding then what good do they serve? I don't know what to believe. Its frightening.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
What came to mind as I read that was the experience of being one with everything. Isn't that the opposite of nothingness.
Being connected to a cosmic conciseness, or the universe seems pretty profound.
And the feeling of nothingness, couldn't that be the loss you felt by the oneness leaving you.
Can you control it to any degree, like Lucid dreaming. have you tried to contact the experience, that made no sense did it...have you tried to see if your alone there. Maybe your not alone, maybe you really are connected to everyone and everything. You just havn't learned where to look? My eldest has learned to Astral travel, I still can't do it, but he said it was pretty darn scary until he learned a measure of control over it. I imagine you have tried all that though.
 

iwant2believe2

Honorable
What came to mind as I read that was the experience of being one with everything. Isn't that the opposite of nothingness.
Being connected to a cosmic conciseness, or the universe seems pretty profound.
And the feeling of nothingness, couldn't that be the loss you felt by the oneness leaving you.

Yes, it is the opposite of nothingness. The emptiness felt immediately after the experience abated was terrible. But which is real? What are we really?

Can you control it to any degree, like Lucid dreaming. have you tried to contact the experience, that made no sense did it...have you tried to see if your alone there. Maybe your not alone, maybe you really are connected to everyone and everything. You just havn't learned where to look?

Experiences come spontaneously (like the one above) and I can also initiate them. Its just one of countless many. As for control, it is not the same sort of thing as lucid dreaming. I can manifest things but I don't control what happens. I'm too afraid to pursue it alone and I've never had the guidance of another.

My eldest has learned to Astral travel, I still can't do it, but he said it was pretty darn scary until he learned a measure of control over it. I imagine you have tried all that though.

Yes I have done this. I quit doing it when I was younger because it would make my sleep paralysis worse. The attacks of SP would happen more frequently.

All these things have done is to make me question reality to the point where there is no rest, no peace...just doubts and more unanswered questions. I envy those who can believe in a religious faith or trust that there is nothing outside of their closed empirical scientific view. They are content to simply believe without the necessity of those beliefs having been proven true. They find a path and follow it...self assured that it is right and that they know what lies at the end. I can't find a path. Every turn leads to another fork in the road.
 

iwant2believe2

Honorable
I should perhaps try to explain something so that I don't sound entirely crazy (though Merle hinted elsewhere that it's likely too late for that lol). I have severe narcolepsy. It was severe enough to permanently disable me and force my retirement from law enforcement in 2011.

In the human brain, states of consciousness correspond to brain frequency...in ascending order...delta, theta, alpha, beta, gamma...to descending order in the neural cycle...gamma, beta, alpha, theta, delta. These frequencies are always present and whichever frequency dominates means that corresponding state of consciousness is dominant at that moment. If you're awake, your gamma, beta or alpha are dominant. If you are asleep, its your theta or delta. Your degree of mental activity corresponds accordingly. In delta, there is very little to no mental cognition. This is deep sleep or unconsciousness. There is no awareness or even dreaming. Theta has little to some cognition. This is the realm of dream sleep and its the grey areas between theta-alpha and theta-delta that the most surreal dreaming occurs.

In alpha-theta there is still some degree of awareness of the external environment. Hypnogogic hallucinations occur here.
In theta-delta the is still some dream content occurring as one slips down into the subconscious. Cessation of self-awareness begins to occur here.
Conversely, alpha, beta, gamma is awake and fully cognizant. With ascending degrees of awareness.
But there is another level....gamma to delta. Here is hyper awareness within the subconscious. This is the realm of the soul, spirit, over soul...whatever one wants to call it. Few ever enter here.

Ok, back to me, because of some malfunction in my neural systems...or some different kind of neural connections etc...I frequently have theta waves intrude, with equal levels of dominance, during my beta and alpha brain wave states. Meaning, essentially, what I see and experience while in REM dream sleep occurs alongside what I am seeing and experiencing while awake. This presents mind blowing experiences that would make an acid tripper jealous. Quite literally, I can see the dream image...can interact with it...at the same time I see the real world and am interacting with it. Is it a hallucination? Not quite. The dream image or thing will superimpose over the real image or thing. I see them both...simultaneously...one through the other and vice versa. The real world doesn't dissolve or merge with the dream image. Both are perceptible. My mind is literally in two different states of consciousness at the same time. This is called REM intrusions.

I also have alpha & beta waves (recall this alpha & beta is awake) intrude on my delta wave state. I become awake in deep sleep. I wake up during the transition from theta REM to delta deep sleep. This is sleep paralysis. It is a hellish state. Almost everyone has experienced a degree of sleep paralysis from time to time. Yet when they do its right in the grey...the are between theta-alpha where are suddenly awakened during the transition from REM sleep to alpha wakefulness. When it does happen, it will almost always be at the natural end of their REM cycle. Not so for me because, unlike a normal person's cycle, I go into it REM first, not last. In fact, I go into REM during alpha before my brain has transitioned to theta. Basically, my brain frequencies are all over the damn place. lol

But here is the final thing...(thankfully because this is a lonnng post)...I have sleep paralysis in the dead of delta sleep. I wake up in the subconscious. Its not always to the intrusion of alpha and beta...sometimes its gamma. Hyper awareness in the subconscious. I can't rightly convey the surreal state.

Now that's just a little background on what I've been trying to explain. Its just scratching the surface really.

EDIT: Sorry to hijack your thread Nivek. :(
 
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Dundee

Fading day by day.
It seems to me that the fact that you are experiencing this means there is something.
I can't get my head around nothingness. But as you said the feeling of emptiness when it stops is awful.
That to me feels like a feeling of loss of the feeling of one ness when it goes, not an awareness of non existence, of nothing.

There is no way for me to be able to experience what you have, but purely by your description it seems to me to be a positive experience being skewed by your own doubts and fears.

You are experience a profound sense of something huge, followed by a sense of loss when it goes.
To me that feels like there is something, you just cant tell what it is.
But it doesn't feel like nothing.
From my seat here I would be elated, it would give me hope.
But then I haven't felt it either.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
I am fascinated by this, its mind blowing. But I have to drive to Melbourne now for my air brush class. which brings me back home in about.....6 hours. I have to go, but am going to re read your post and try to digest it. I have an idea looming, in this poor little Hobbit brain :)
Not sue of your time zone so will chat when I catch you on next, but can't wait to re-read it.
But for now, my airbrush calls.
Chat soon :)
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
That is a mighty complex thing to take in. The thing that comes to my mind is the need find a way to separate the real from the imagined, and further to be able to decide if the imagines is just that, your subconscious taking you for a ride, or some profound glimpse of some other reality. Each is possible, each is likely, and the truth is probably bits of both. But through all that you seem to be on a roller coaster of extreme emotions.

Would it be possible to chart in some way all the combinations of conciseness you experience in a sequence, or perhaps not a sequence but in some fashion so you can look at each state individually.
Then take each one and list its properties, and effect, and further what you can control and what you cant.
For example, I get sleep paralysis too, but by the sound of things not like you do. It used to terrify me beyond belief, until I tool the time to understand it. I will use what i did in my simple example to illustrate how I got over it.

OK so in my case,
My body is still in a sleep like state,
My mind wakes up to some degree,
I have initially no understanding why I cannot move,
I am confused as to what is real because I am still both dreaming
and awake enough to be aware of my surroundings.
The terror of paralysis takes over from the dream state.
I am now less aware of my dreams and very aware that I cant move.
I wait in fear
After a time I begin to gain some movement.
Eventually it passes and I am awake.
The terror still looms large in my mind.

OK so that's how it used to be, until I read up on it and what it really was, so I thought OK, what are the bits I can control, and what are the bits I cant control.

I CAN
Be aware of what is happening.
Recognize what the process will be, and the phases that occur till It passes
Be aware that I may be able to perceive my dreams as well as being awake
Be aware that I may be very frightened
Be aware that it will take time to regain movement
Be aware I am not at risk
Be aware I am safe.

I CANT
Stop it mid cycle....
I cant move....
And you know what, that's about it.

So I thought about all this over and over, trying to remain aware of all these thoughts.

Then one night I got sleep paralysis again, and I remembered all of the I CANS
So this time it was different.

Straight away I understood what was happening, so in an instant I was able to eliminate
the fear, and be aware I am safe, and it will pass.
I was able to realize I am both asleep and awake at the same time.
I understood it all.

So I actually found myself quite amused and fascinated by it all.
I enjoyed trying to separate the dream part from the reality.
I tried a little lucid dreaming, could I control the dream part now i was aware of it?
I became aware of individual body parts, and was having fun periodically testing for movement
I experimented by seeing what happened if I tried to force my mind to pay attention to the awake part, and be more self aware of my paralysis.
All the while monitoring my inability to move.
Then it passed.
And I realized that at that moment i turned a once terrifying experience into almost a fun experiment. I actually sat up grinning at my achievement, I had no residual terror, but had fun thinking back over it wondering what I would try next.

OK so I know my situation is minor and in now way even goes close to your complex situation.

But could you apply the same methodology.
Break down clinically, as if helping someone else, each state of consciousness you may find yourself in.
Recognize the real from the not real, identify the bits you can be aware of, and the bits you can control.
Even perhaps look at the bits that you cant control but at least watch them with an understanding of whats happening.

Can you try to turn it into an experiment, not to be feared, but to be fascinated by.

The other thing is, you said earlier...
All these things have done is to make me question reality to the point where there is no rest, no peace...just doubts and more unanswered questions. I envy those who can believe in a religious faith or trust that there is nothing outside of their closed empirical scientific view. They are content to simply believe without the necessity of those beliefs having been proven true. They find a path and follow it...self assured that it is right and that they know what lies at the end. I can't find a path. Every turn leads to another fork in the road.

We all feel that way, we all want answers, but try as I might, I plod along like a caveman, with little or no ability to do anything to find my answers.
You on the other hand have an opportunity that others do not. You may call it a curse. But you have a unique ability to have a direct and cognoscente window into your own subconsciousness mind while being able to be awake.

People sit on top of mountains for decades trying to achieve what you can do at will.
I say write it all down as if you were trying to help me. Clinically pull each stage apart event by event, and use that brilliant mind of yours to decide what bits to be not fearful off.
Write a journal of each thought experiment and plan for the next.
Chart it, change it, watch it and research it.

And remember above all that just because it makes you question reality, does not mean we are all doomed to the void.
It is more likely in my mind you are experiencing some sort of profound cosmic conciseness that you are yet to understand.
You have experienced a wholeness that I only dream of.
It doesn't have to be a curse, it can be a blessing.

I hope I haven't insulted you by inadvertently making such a significant part of your life sound simple.
I have no idea what it is really like for you.
But it is just what came to mind when I read your post.

Oh and when you write the book about it, make a gazillion dollars, and become famous. I expect a mention in the Forward :)
 

SOUL-DRIFTER

Life Long Researcher
....

Ok, back to me, because of some malfunction in my neural systems...or some different kind of neural connections etc...I frequently have theta waves intrude, with equal levels of dominance, during my beta and alpha brain wave states. Meaning, essentially, what I see and experience while in REM dream sleep occurs alongside what I am seeing and experiencing while awake. This presents mind blowing experiences that would make an acid tripper jealous. Quite literally, I can see the dream image...can interact with it...at the same time I see the real world and am interacting with it. Is it a hallucination? Not quite. The dream image or thing will superimpose over the real image or thing. I see them both...simultaneously...one through the other and vice versa. The real world doesn't dissolve or merge with the dream image. Both are perceptible. My mind is literally in two different states of consciousness at the same time. This is called REM intrusions.

... :(

I use to experience this as a teenager.
 

iwant2believe2

Honorable
That is a mighty complex thing to take in. The thing that comes to my mind is the need find a way to separate the real from the imagined, and further to be able to decide if the imagines is just that, your subconscious taking you for a ride, or some profound glimpse of some other reality. Each is possible, each is likely, and the truth is probably bits of both. But through all that you seem to be on a roller coaster of extreme emotions.

I can readily differentiate between the real and the hallucinatory when they occur simultaneously. An REM intrusion is really just the reverse of what occurs during a Lucid Dream. Consciousness intrudes on the dream state and both states, however brief in time, exist simultaneously. Conversely, the dream intrudes on the conscious awake state. Unlike the lucid dream, however, the REM intrusion can not be turned off. It is not under my direct control except to say that whatever thought arises will instantly manifest as a thing superimposing over the real world. In a controlled environment, this can be fun. Driving a car or restraining a combative arrestee...not so much.

If you are asking if the 'other' here is a glimpse into an alternate reality...I don't know.

Would it be possible to chart in some way all the combinations of conciseness you experience in a sequence, or perhaps not a sequence but in some fashion so you can look at each state individually.
Then take each one and list its properties, and effect, and further what you can control and what you cant.
For example, I get sleep paralysis too, but by the sound of things not like you do. It used to terrify me beyond belief, until I tool the time to understand it. I will use what i did in my simple example to illustrate how I got over it.

I haven't tried charting but my neurologist and I have had extensive talks about the subjective experience of the narcolepsy complex.

I learned to control my sleep paralysis experience when I was younger...to lessen the fear experienced while in it. I perform mathematical computations (and I suck at math lol) until the paralysis abates and I cycle back into theta then briefly alpha. If I don't fully waken during alpha, I will immediately slip back into theta. The REM paralysis will ensue again. This will happen back to back, one episode after another...20 to 30 times in a row...until I am able to escape the pull of narcoleptic sleep. If I let my concentration slip in the slightest, panic ensues along with spatial and auditory hypnagogic hallucinations. You must understand that my brain is programmed to enter sleep states against my will. I take 6 10mg dexedrine (amphetamine) a day and two 200mg Provigil a day and it just barely keeps me awake. It does not eliminate all the symptoms.

I do sometimes have theta-alpha sleep paralysis or what is known as 'the old hag'. This is easier to escape than theta-delta sleep paralysis. The old hag and I know each other well.

And then there is cataplexy...which is basically sudden involuntary sleep paralysis kicking in while awake.

Then there are other parasomnias that fall under the narcolepsy complex such as sleep walking, exploding head, hypnic jerk, micro sleeps, micro arousal, nightmare syndrome, OOBEs, confusional arousal, REM sleep apnea, etc. Not everyone with narcolepsy will have these as part of their complex and those who do can have various degrees of severity. I do. I think the only two I don't have is REM behavior disorder and night terrors. I have automatic REM behavior and nightmare syndrome but that is not the same.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Hell 22, sorry, I should have known better. I a special form of narcolepsy, the type where the common sense part of my brain falls asleep (for 23.75 hours a day)and the rest of it runs away with itself :) I should have realized you would have tried every avenue possible and then some. A tad naive of me to offer such a dopey (non) solution, I see now. Hope I didn't sound patronizing.

Since my own life has fallen in a heap I have spent so much time with my shrink its a wonder you don't need a microscope to find me. I have learned one of my many failing is that I am something called a fixer.

Sometimes a girl just needs a hug and an understanding ear. I still get trapped in that stupid suit of armor I seem to have been born in. I always have endless hug on hand for those who need them, am never too busy for the ear, day or night, but still can't get past the next impulse, which is to spend the next week trying to fix the problem. Usually by waving my sword madly at everything that comes within arms reach. Including, fly's moths and shadows while the real enemy walks straight past me unnoticed. lol
I am learning, but old habits die hard. Still can't keep the necessary part of my brain awake on that one. :)
I am off to work, 8:30 am here, but am still on my own in my little workshop at the min which means I will be back in forum land in halfa.
Se you all soon.
 

iwant2believe2

Honorable
Its altogether fine, Dundee. I don't feel trivialized or patronized at all. In fact, I appreciate the advice and the listening ear. :)
 
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