Iranian tensions

Discussion in 'Present & Current Events' started by nivek, May 11, 2019.

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What do you think will be the outcome of General Soleimani’s death?

  1. Full scale war

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Small scale confrontations

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
  3. Escalated terrorist attacks

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%
  4. Nothing, the anger will fade

    2 vote(s)
    18.2%
  1. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    Of course that's horrible and revolting. But we've murdered hundreds of thousands of kids over there, and we've been arming and funding terrorists in Syria who behead children because the psychopaths who control our country wanted to destroy Syria just like they destroyed Iraq and Libya. Those parents and family members want justice too.

    You need to stop letting the US state media push your buttons, and instead look behind the curtain of BS to see what's really going on and why. Once you figure it out, you'll understand why we need to stop the endless mass murder operations over there - they're not making the world a better or safer place for anyone (especially ourselves), and the real reasons behind it are about billionaires remaining billionaires....there's nothing righteous or smart or necessary about any of it. It's just greed, and a total disregard for human life - those are the true driving factors of US foreign policy.
     
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  2. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    You need to see this - this is how they lied us into the first Iraq war by pushing our emotional buttons:


    Then they lied us into the second Iraq war by lying about WMD's and by lying about imaginary connections between Iraq and al-Qaeda.

    Why do they need to lie in order to get us into these wars? Because the real reasons for these wars - primarily greed - wouldn't garner the popular support they need in order to pull it off.
     
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  3. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Oh yeah, I mean, I think most of us know, It's primarily about all that oil. And I will be fair about this, As much Oil as there is there, The entirety of the middle east should be rolling in wealth, not just a few royal families. I mean, Our hands aren't clean. But Really no one's hands are clean in this, I mean, It's not so much that they have the Oil. It's that if America doesn't come in and acquire it, China or Russia will. I do see your side of the debate and you are accurate in this. It's just. I can't get past all the suffering and death. I know this will sound funny. But, It hurts. It's literally painful.
     
  4. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I haven't read what's past this on the thread but my first reaction to this is the typical 'shades of gray'.Never mind the ancient significance of the region just go back to the last half of the 19th century. It was about the oil, and not in exactly the same sense we look at it today. Oil meant military modernization and the ability to project power. Not that it hadn't been already done but oil burning shrunk the world considerably. This reminds me of a good book I started, put down somewhere without finishing and then forgot about.

    We - meaning the West overall - are responsible for the mess over there. I sort of agree with what you said about the Klingons but I think that's a natural consequence of being f****d with constantly. The 2003 invasion of Iraq was the most recent bald-faced corporate grab. There are others but we don't remember.

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I also see your point. The world is not a nice place, period. Best to speak from a position of strength. Weakness invites exploitation - also a normal human condition. Unfortunately a lot of people just stop thinking right at that point.

    It's absolutely true that we created the monster but before we start feeling too badly think about some of the people we've been killing - sawing off people's heads, burning them alive. Loooong second but destroying antiquities.

    I know this didn't come from the Middle East but Malala Yousafzai might privately concede that there are cockroaches out there that need to be stepped on. All things considered Soleimani needed squashing.
     
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  6. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Sitting here having coffee with Mrs.PF I was thinking about these posts.

    Yes - this current mess it's our own fault in most respects.
    But it's the problem we have and it won't just go away. It certainly won't be defused by apology or half measures.

    I guess this will be a test of the Patriot Act. Clinton couldn't assassinate bin Laden in '98 because he lacked the legal basis to do so. I can't help but wonder how things would have turned out had we done that. No 9/11, no Iraq, no Afghanistan.

    Fast forward to now and Trump had not only the legal authority but a precedent from which to act, and oh boy did he. Personally, I'd rather he hadn't but again, this is the problem we've got. Hopefully whacking this guy really will degrade their capabilities.
     
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  7. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    The President has acted legally and in accordance with current laws, if we want this type of action to change we must change our laws regarding terrorism...Whether one agrees with his actions or not isn't the point, I think most actions our military follows through with are simply are viewed as necessary and can be difficult to label as a good thing or bad thing sometimes...Vilifying someone's support of or lack of support serves no purpose other than to create more division, when what is needed is more knowledge and understanding which can change another perspective much more effectively...

    Iran has been hell bent on the destruction of America, that has not changed, no matter how subtle, they continue to kill Americans and turn others against us and they create much tension of their own in the Middle East without our help...I would rather the US not be in the Middle East at all, let the fools there kills one another all they want, which you and I know they will continue to do so irregardless of our presence...I have a nephew in his early 20s stationed in Afghanistan right now and has been there for months, I would rather he be home or stationed in Europe somewhere and certainly don't want him going to Iraq now...

    ...
     
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  8. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    I do not expect all-out war because Iran already knows it would lose everything but Soleimani’s death is still potentially a game-changer for the Middle East especially but also for the US...The Iranians have been striking out against American interests, against American allies and partners all over the region for the last six months or so, this killing was an obvious response to those actions, irregardless of whether we think it right or wrong...

    There has been an ongoing tit-for-tat shadow war between the United States and Iran in case no one has noticed and I seriously doubt the Trump administration wants a war with Iran and it should be obvious that Iran also does not want a war with the US...A direct military conflict with the US is a conflict Iran knows it would lose and that it would be the end of their own regime if they did engage the US directly...What we are seeing now is a lot of saber-rattling and once the rhetoric settles down, we are likely to see the tit-for-tat shadow war to continue on...

    ...
     
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  9. kbarannikova

    kbarannikova Honorable

    Messages:
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    Just amazing... How media reports differ across the globe... Russian media never used the word "terrorist" towards Soleimani. By contrast, all channels call him a fighter against terrorism. I inclined to support House Speaker of the Democratic Party Nancy Pelosi that Trump's actions were "disproportionate".
     
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  10. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    3,484
    I like that you haven't gotten impassioned about these subjects. Many people get very impassioned about these issues and lose their composure, You seem to be holding things together pretty well. That's admirable.
     
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  11. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    3,484
    War Is a legacy of Hate, I think it's important that people in their hearts, Know and accept their affiliations, To the Enemy, they don't care if we are sympathetic. In the Art of War, And Many Texts of Wisdom, It is stated that To know one's enemy. I'm not defending a corrupt government here, That's not where I stand, It's the people Because We can't overlook that When Wars happen, it's not usually the government that bleeds and perishes, It's the people.

    Maybe, America did Start this whole thing, But, does the man, that started the Fight Just stop mid-battle and say, I was wrong, Beat the hell out of me? We must realize, We have made enemies, Those enemies want our destruction. They are a danger to us as individuals. They want to harm our families. terrorist attacks Have happened, And when it's innocent people and their families that die, Does it sum it up perfectly to call those people a casualty of a conflict?

    I feel It's important for people to understand, they don't want to hash things out over coffee.

    Consider, IN an actual war. People believe that If the enemy surrenders that the attacker will stop, That's not always the case. And to boot this, If you surrender, You have subjugated your freedom and choice and are now their prisoner, There isn't a lot of Choice in War. It's just illogical hate and conflict, And Even the Most intelligent of us, As much as we would detest needless conflict. Must accept, When someone comes into Rob a liquor store, You can't negotiate the gun out of the burglar's hand. They have a goal and an agenda.

    So what If we are as a nation to Blame for How pissed off the middle east is, It's not about Whos' to blame, That's a morality issue It's about protecting our own and who comes out on top.
     
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  12. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    One of the reasons we’re vilified is drone strikes like this.

    Trump certainly didn’t invent it.

    Why Drones Work: The Case for Washington’s Weapon of Choice

    If Obama did it he’d be justified in media. “He took out UBL and now this dangerous terrorist that posed a direct threat” Trump does it he’s an unbalanced criminal.

    No, direct action isn’t in Iran’s interest. They’re not stupid or suicidal.
     
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  13. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    2,907
    Russia and the Soviet Union have a long relationship with Syria. Saddam’s Iraq also. They were both ‘client states’.

    Yeah, we consume our own media and most never stop to think about what the rest of the world thinks.
     
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  14. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    1,012
    The reason it won't go away is that we won't pull out of the Mideast. And we keep murdering civilians, and in pretty much every way imaginable we keep stirring the hornet's nest. The world would be a better and safer place today if we had never destroyed Iraq and Libya under false pretenses, and attempted the same with Syria. US military engagement in the Mideast has only made things much worse for everyone. So we should stop doing that.

    That's not what happened. Clinton did try to kill bin Laden with Operation Infinite Reach. This was justified because we had proof that bin Laden had conducted specific terrorist attacks against us, resulting in a slew of American fatalities. But our intelligence was bad and he wasn't at the al Qaeda training camp when the Tomahawk cruise missiles struck their targets.

    It's already had the opposite effect - radical Islamic groups are being flooded with new recruits right now. Soleimani wanted to be martyred. And we just gave him exactly what what he wanted - which is all we ever seem to do frankly.

    Really - who's telling you that? The truth is that the US has been routinely operating in an extrajudicial military manner for decades (further bolstering the view of our geopolitical adversaries that we're a gigantic terrorist state running amok all over the world, spreading death and destruction wherever we tread), and the only people who don't see it that way are warmongering US politicians and their corporate news media lackeys who are always pro-war:

    "But the United Nations official in charge of examining targeted killings, Agnes Callamard, questioned the operation in a series of tweets, noting that the U.S. did not detail any specific plot involving Soleimani. Under international human rights law, she noted, a country may kill in self-defense only under extremely narrow circumstances in which the lethal strike was the only option to prevent the imminent attack. She also argued that the deaths of those killed as collateral damage, including drivers and security guards, were unlawful.

    Iraq's public objection to the strike in Baghdad also means it violates international law, other scholars argue.

    'We have carried out the attack on the territory of a state that plainly did not give us permission,' said Mary Ellen O'Connell, a law professor and an expert on international disputes at the University of Notre Dame. 'The attack was unlawful, the assassination was not justifiable.'"
    Was it legal for the U.S. to kill Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani?

    Compare Iran's track record with ours. How many nations has Iran invaded and destroyed? None. Last I checked we were bombing seven countries...and we rarely hear a whisper about it on our state media televisions. Iran isn't a threat to the US and it never has been. Well, maybe that will change now that we've assassinated their most revered General - a man who just helped defeat the Islamic State in Syria btw.

    All of our troops and advisors and CIA spooks should come home right now. Everything we do, and everything we've ever done over there has only made things worse, and escalated the dangers to Americans everywhere. While leaving mountains of innocent corpses in our wake btw.

    First - you're not looking at this geopolitically: the Iran/Syria/Russia alliance is very real and very significant here. This attack was a short-cut to WWIII.

    Second - if you rely upon the US state/corporate news media, then you have no idea why attacks against US bases and personnel have been increasing. The US and Saudi Arabia have been covertly supporting terrorists all across that region because they've been our mercenary army to attempt an overthrow of Assad (which is another internationally illegal war crime that we've been perusing for years). We trained al Nusra terrorists to stage chemical weapons attacks in Syria in order to garner public support for a full-scale US invasion, and all three times they did it the US news media immediately blamed Assad, and all three times subsequent chemical analysis proved that it was the US-sponsored terrorists in Syria who had done it, not the Syrian military. In fact the last "chemical weapons attack by Assad against his own people" (as the US fake news media breathlessly and falsely reported it) wasn't even sarin gas - it was ordinary chlorine:



    How does overthrowing stable governments half a world away, and thereby rapidly inflating the anti-American terrorist networks all across the US, "protecting our own?" It doesn't. It increases the danger to all Americans, and undermines global stability on multiple fronts, which will eventually spiral out of control and result in a nuclear holocaust.

    Actually the entire US news media always supports all mass murder operations and killing, regardless of who does it. Even now they're saying that the assassination was a good thing, but the way Trump did it was bad. But they're not against the strike itself; they never are.[/QUOTE]

    This assassination will cause many more American casualties. And that's a best-case scenario, because a war with Iran - which is suddenly far more likely - could easily pull in Russia and possibly even China, and trigger a global thermonuclear holocaust.

    But Iran has been on the US hit list since at least 2003 - as General Wesley Clark described in this brief video segment, so none of this is actually surprising:

     
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  15. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Noble

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    With all due respect to both sides, what was an Iranian general doing in Iraq? I think some of these questions need to be asked:

    Was he invited by Iraqi gov.?
    What were he helping armed groups not connected with Iraqi gov.?
    Was he killed on Iranian territory (obviously not)?
    Is the intelligence community in possession of evidence that he was involved in killing Western citizens?

    And on a more personal level, I would like to ask few other questions, like: are there any political prisoners in Iran? Are religious freedoms (including non-believers) respected in Iran? Is Iranian gov. elected democratically? What would world lose if Iran had a truly democratically government? etc. etc.

    Realistically speaking, if there was a war, Iran would disintegrate in 1 month, same as Iraq did. These guys are in stone age and with none existing moral because they would be forced to fight in a fear from punishment, not for defending their country. Same as Iraqi army. One has to take into the account that any threats coming from Iran's side are just posturing, because their conventional forces are very weak and air-force is practically non-existent. And Iranian gov. had opportunity to see from very close distance how efficiently Saddam Husein was dispatched. So they very well know they don't stand a chance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  16. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    If they say they have that evidence, can we believe them without seeing that evidence for ourselves? No, we can't. Because the US IC has been lying about everything for decades. They lied about WMD's in Iraq, they lied about the chemical weapons attacks in Syria, they lied about RussiaGate, the list goes on and on.

    Of course. We have political prisoners too - does that give another nation the right to attack us? No, of course not.

    All of these questions are meaningless because Iran had a democratic government, but we overthrew it back in 1953 with Operation Ajax.

    This is a myopic and feckless argument: Iran is closely allied with Russia and Syria, and if we try to overthrow Iran then we could easily end up in a nuclear war.
     
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  17. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    This assassination will cause many more American casualties. And that's a best-case scenario, because a war with Iran - which is suddenly far more likely - could easily pull in Russia and possibly even China, and trigger a global thermonuclear holocaust.

    But Iran has been on the US hit list since at least 2003 - as General Wesley Clark described in this brief video segment, so none of this is actually surprising:

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry if this reply something up in quote, I am on my phone right now which is notoriously bad at forum posts. To continue though,

    See, I think what's going on here is you have a very analytical mind and you are trying to justify or quantify illogical actions carried out via greed and hate through war. And see that's very moral and appropriate for a man of wisdom to do, the issue is, hate and war have never made sense and justice and morality do not govern the world. If it did there would be no war.
     
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  18. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Noble

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    Syria doesn't have nuclear weapons and is completely in tatters, unable to even completely control all the territory within it's international borders. It's safe to say that 90% it doesn't matter what Syria says or decides.

    Russia is not an allay of Iran. It's more that West pushed Russia out, so they have no choice but to make a weak alliance with Iran. Russian alliance with Iran is certainly not strong enough that Russians will risk nuclear war with West, unless their own survival is under a threat. Putin is not that stupid. He simply has to play with what he's got. If anything Russia and Iran are natural competitors, first as all neighboring countries are, second since Russia has large Muslim population that can be influenced Iranian policies and Russia has to be weary of that influence since many Muslim extremist groups performed significant number of successful large scale terrorist acts in Russian cities, over recent years.

    UK's own situation is very similar and requires balanced approach. UK has large Muslim population, Saudi elites keep money in British banks, while (according to BBC documentaries) Saudi preachers openly incite terrorism in London mosques. Yet UK gov. turns blind eye, because of significance of Saudis for business. As well, some of Iranian religious leaders have huge properties in London, in Bishop's Avenue to be exact. So, it's not just politics at play, there are lots of practical considerations.

    All that is awaiting Iran, if it does any kind of underhanded terrorist activity, is increase of Western sanctions and further spiraling down of it's economy. Which will hopefully just increase Iran's internal turmoil and bring gov. down.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  19. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    It's only in tatters because the US has been sponsoring terrorists to try to overthrow Assad since the fake "Arab Spring" US-Saudi covert op in 2011, which prompted Russia to get involved, and they've succeeded in halting US imperialism in Syria. There's no reason to think they wouldn't have a similar response if we went after Iran.

    Sure they are. They're not as close as the US and the UK, but their interests are already joined, and deepened thanks to US sanctions:

    "Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the two neighboring nations have generally enjoyed very close cordial relations. Iran and Russia are strategic allies[3][4][5] and form an axis in the Caucasus alongside Armenia. Iran and Russia are also military allies in the conflicts in Syria and Iraq and partners in Afghanistan and post-Soviet Central Asia. Due to Western economic sanctions on Iran, Russia has become a key trading partner, especially in regard to the former's excess oil reserves. Militarily, Iran is the only country in Western Asia that has been invited to join the Collective Security Treaty Organization, Russia's own international treaty organization in response to NATO. While much of the Iranian military uses Iranian-manufactured weapons and domestic hardware, Iran still purchases some weapons systems from Russia. In turn, Iran has helped Russia with its drone technology and other military technology. Iran has its embassy in Moscow and consulates in the cities of Astrakhan and Kazan. Russia has its embassy in Tehran, and consulates in Rasht and Isfahan."
    Iran–Russia relations - Wikipedia

    You mean "underhanded terrorist activity" like assassinating our top general on foreign soil with a drone strike? Because I guarantee you, that's exactly how they see it. And I'm not so sure they're wrong.
     
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  20. kbarannikova

    kbarannikova Honorable

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    I'm a blond!:wub8: "Hasn't ever been used" I meant. Guys, kick me more often, please! Pigfarmer, you are tall, thin and irritable! Kick me more often, please!
    Well, I think I am useless for global mind under this topic... Although, Thomas R. Morrison just in a row is writing what makes my heart beat more often.
     
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