Is Soul just a Software?

pepe

Celestial
That's just low quality reasoning based on a luck of knowledge. And I'll quickly destroy it, so that nuisance doesn't re-appear ever again.

Never mind chess and go, because these are perfect information games. AI had completely destroyed and humiliated humans in imperfect information games, like poker. AI is even better at bluffing! As it stands, AI defeated human world champion by outdoing him by a factor of 800%. There is a tip for you, hook up to AI, go play poker with some humans and take home bags of money. So much so for "It is impossible to equal our level" x30

Our mind and particularly our communication are mostly serial interfaces. That is directly caused by our weak brains. They process situations word by word. And indeed if there are multiple sound sources, like 3 people talking simultaneously with same loudness, our minds instantly get overloaded and confused. While it is practically feasible to receive information on multiple channels simultaneously, because your WiFi is doing it all the time.

I am saying that, because that is actually what comes from some UFO stories as a capability that minds of aliens have. Apparently, aliens have a language that can fit a whole book into what would be one paragraph for us. And they speak in very high frequency pitch, so they sound as chirping of birds, so they can transfer more information. But that is speculative.

So, there you are, I'll even conclude it for you: "It is impossible to equal our level". That is only true if you are totally ignorant. We can improve both our machines and our minds with knowledge we have. Even better, many adaptive systems, like AI can improve far beyond what we can do.



Of cause it's "misty". AI is seen as existential threat so humans are politicizing it. Whenever us humans see our territory endangered we instinctively go for "misty" stuff in order to buy the time. While politics is important for keeping piece at home, we should never let politics mess up with our future. Because if we stop the progress, our enemies might not. And once our enemies get ahead of us they'll take over our resources. Not a nice thought. Just as reality check, China is already filing AI patents faster than US. Not to mention that, according to Michio Kaku, 40% of all PhD students in US are foreigners.

So, just to nail it down, "misty" is good enough for playing politics, but "misty" is useless when it comes to fighting for survival with your competitors.

It is plainly obvious that Nature by itself is second rate as designer. Life is much superior to Nature as a creative power. We are already outdoing nature in practically everything we try. From that follows that we will, given the time and resources, improve ourselves beyond what nature had done.

If we make aeroplanes that fly 100 times faster than birds, why should we be stuck with puny little brains that nature built for us with a "throw some random s..t at a wall and see what will stick" method?

If you have a guts for another AI vs human reality check, I wrote a post of how AI is effectively closing retailers around US and the world, here: 22 Retailers Closing Stores

There is a rule of thumb you are not aware of or choose to look past.

Any increase in intelligence of the artificial gives the creator even more. Without a plan there is no product and from the first to last these will never reverse. It is actually in possible.

Chess is a poor example of intelligence as it is very limited and poker even more so but maybe not in another sense of reading a person, which by the way is the void of permenance that will never be bridged.

A tool is all it will ever be.
 

pepe

Celestial
With that being said I see some reason as to why our religious conflicts will for ever be with us. Seems like we should be able to put it to one side as we live in an age where peace should be attainable but as we gain intelligence as a species our creator is upheld by our gain and there is the void in all its glory when looking from the other angle.

The magic ingredient is thyme, eons of it and then we become the hardware.
 

Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
Yeah, just another human pseudo-rational opinion. AI had:

- passed Touring test, meaning that in a conversation between human and AI, human can not tell that he is not talking with another human. Touring test in itself proves that there is no soul.
- AI had beaten humans in general knowledge test,
- AI had beaten humans in chess, go and poker,

Yeah, it's just a tool. Better go and check what Elon Musk thinks about future of AI.
 

pepe

Celestial
I do agree that AI is remarkable and its future even more so but is it not fact that human input is accountable for all its success.

Put me in front of one and I could tell whether it's artificial without saying a word a way before it had my number. It is just a tool used by its maker and to see it as anything else is not reality. I wouldn't worry about Elon as I don't think it matters who makes the claim.

Bottom line is we are a work in progress and if that were to halt, so would the artificial.

Cyborg rejected.
 

Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
I do agree that AI is remarkable and its future even more so but is it not fact that human input is accountable for all its success.

That is blatantly uninformed opinion. The only input we have is to click on the Start program button.

Here this AI scientist explains that AI is CREATIVE and ones it surpasses human abilities it starts inventing game moves that are stunning the experts. For example, world champion in Go said that AI created successful strategies that he had never seen.



Here is the first production chair completely designed by AI. THAT'S HUMAN LEVEL CREATIVITY FROM AI

Philippe Starck's A.I. chair is "first chair designed with artificial intelligence"
 
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pepe

Celestial
That is blatantly uninformed opinion. The only input we have is to click on the Start program button.

Here this AI scientist explains that AI is CREATIVE and ones it surpasses human abilities it starts inventing game moves that are stunning the experts. For example, world champion in Go said that AI created successful strategies that he had never seen.



Here is the first production chair completely designed by AI. THAT'S HUMAN LEVEL CREATIVITY FROM AI

Philippe Starck's A.I. chair is "first chair designed with artificial intelligence"


Another click to prove who is who is the end programme.

Whoever rights the code sets the parameters and I feel you may have bought into an almost religious belief, sold by those who have an interest to do so.

A programme created by developers that then creates a better version is 100% a human achievement or are you saying that they stumbled on this phenomenon and witnessed it rewriting itself when not requested to do so.

Fairytale and if it came true, don't you think we would all be worshipping it.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Another click to prove who is who is the end programme.

Whoever rights the code sets the parameters and I feel you may have bought into an almost religious belief, sold by those who have an interest to do so.

A programme created by developers that then creates a better version is 100% a human achievement or are you saying that they stumbled on this phenomenon and witnessed it rewriting itself when not requested to do so.

Fairytale and if it came true, don't you think we would all be worshipping it.

I think you're both right. Helpful, eh?

No point whatsoever denying the impact on business models (among other things) but I think you're arguing apples and oranges to some extent. Utility vs creativity.

What kind of a ruler to use to quantify je ne sais quo ?
 

pepe

Celestial
I think you're both right. Helpful, eh?

No point whatsoever denying the impact on business models (among other things) but I think you're arguing apples and oranges to some extent. Utility vs creativity.

What kind of a ruler to use to quantify je ne sais quo ?

Is it possible for both to be right without both being wrong, a certain je ne sais quoi tells me not. I would say creation is a good model to gauge intelligence upon. Comparing ourselves to a hypothetical equal species would ask that question for many reasons.

I'm only defending the point that it is impossible for anything we create to surpass its maker and nothing compares to ourselves. I know a basic laptop could piss me in a retaining information contest and as an organiser but we made that for our benifit. But yes this will go in circles as two dogs are barking up two different trees.
 

pepe

Celestial
The m5 multitronic unit aka, Huawei has taken over total control of the Enterprise.

All hale hypnotoad.
 

Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
I'm only defending the point that it is impossible for anything we create to surpass its maker and nothing compares to ourselves.

It's difficult to argue with somebody when he's both deaf and ignorant. I've provided clear and unambiguous evidence that that's a false belief.

There in that Joe Rogan interview an AI expert clearly states that in a world champion game of Go testified that AI created completely new ingenious and successful strategies never before created by humans. Are you better in Go than a world champion? If not than go say a prayer and stop repeating delusional beliefs unsupported by evidence.

AI beats humans 800% in poker. AI practically cleans up a floor with poker world champion. How possibly can conclude from that nothing created by human can surpass human???

As humans we are burdened by 1) prejudice, 2) pier pressure. Whole this forum is devoted to fighting both of those when it comes to subject of UFOs. AI has "zero prejudice" and AI has no clue what "pier pressure" might be. We are social animals and always have to agree before taking action. In a domain of creativity that's suicide because that's designed by committee. Luck of prejudice and pier pressure is the main advantage of AI and that's AI will always beat crap out of humans.

AI is creative. Human told to AI: "Design me a chair" and AI obliged. This is the first chair completely designed by non human mind:

kartell_starck_autodesk_ai_chair_salone_del_mobile_dezeen_2364_col_4-852x1304.jpg
 

nivek

As Above So Below
AI beats humans 800% in poker. AI practically cleans up a floor with poker world champion.

I don't know about the 800 percent bit, but these poker bots do win many times...I have downloaded a couple poker bot programs to give it a try with poker and blackjack...I'll let you know the results, lol...

The soul is a body as is the spirit in their own 'place' as the physical body is, the question should be, what is it that inhabits these bodies and become conscious in them and of them...?

...
 

Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
I don't know about the 800 percent bit, but these poker bots do win many times...I have downloaded a couple poker bot programs to give it a try with poker and blackjack...I'll let you know the results, lol...

The soul is a body as is the spirit in their own 'place' as the physical body is, the question should be, what is it that inhabits these bodies and become conscious in them and of them...?

...

I read that 800% few years back and I can't find the reference. But, nevertheless, quick search will find tons of articles about AI defeating humans in poker. Here is one:

AI beats professionals in six-player poker

The soul is a body as is the spirit in their own 'place' as the physical body is, the question should be, what is it that inhabits these bodies and become conscious in them and of them...?...

That question needs some serious re-phrasing. Because weather something has a 'soul' is arbitrarily decided by us humans. It's not something that is independently verifiable. If a majority of peeps say that exhibit 'A' has soul than that object has a soul. Obviously, that's wrong approach and whole question is subjective.

That's why Touring's test knocks that question off. One can not any more in a conversation objectively distinguish between human and AI. That objectively means that AI has a soul.

And not just Touring's test. As shown in previous post AI can design a chair, and at that not bad looking one. So AI is creative and thus has a soul.

Whole that 'soul' argument is arbitrary. In pre-colonial times black people were without any guilt described as soul-less. Same as with any other human conflict, each side's propaganda routinely describe other side as soul-less, dumb, beast like etc. Countless crimes of humanity were committed by conveniently stripping this or that enemy / minority of the 'soul' etc.

Error that is routinely made is that if one knows in advance that software was involved he than says "oh, that was mechanical, so there was no consciousness". That's not how objective thinking works. If one can not distinguish between chair created by AI or, even better, pop song written by AI and the same product made by human, than AI qualifies as consciousness.

Burden is on you to OBJECTIVELY show that humans have soul and AI doesn't, consciousness and all that jazz. What REAL, non-politicized, non-consentual, without prior prejudice, nuts & bolts evidence you have that humans have soul? When you play against the poker bot, how do you even know if you are playing with bot or with human?
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
That old Star Trek episode just showed that human angst over being eclipsed by their creation has been around a while. The Cold War and Space Race zeitgeist brought that to the forefront at that time. I think it's a form of the Frankenstein story repackaged. AI touches that same raw nerve many of us have.

In the mean time I have no problem with AI improving my shopping experience. I try not to think about some of the other uses it's put to. As long as the pod bays doors open when I want them to there'll be no squawking from me.
 

Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
apparently DARPA is working on a super-AI project where they will be using a super computer to mimic ALL the functions of human brain. I think program is already running for 10 years. That's actually something impressive. The everyday AI that is playing chess with you, improving your shopping experience or finding interesting videos for you to watch is relatively speaking small game.

If DARPA's AI gets going, than it will be "HELLO BIG BROTHER". Practically there would be no need for most of civil servants. In China they already have national face recognition system that can identify any civilian anywhere in the whole country in under one second.

But there are other much more scary tech trends, like this one from US where company is forcing all it's employees to be inserted with microchips. Just imagine microchips, face recognition and super-AI all united under one hood. And than, just to top it up, imagine some third-world hacker stealing your or your family member's, now completely digital identity. You'll be in a serious trouble proving that you are yourself.

And talking about corporate media deflecting attention from real issues, not a single media channel nor politician rose to criticize micro chipping humans. This is the ultimate in abusing privacy, not some benign cookies that advertisers drop on your computer:

 
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nivek

As Above So Below
When you play against the poker bot, how do you even know if you are playing with bot or with human?

Does a bot know when its getting its digital clock cleaned by a human?...lol

The Lounge

What would a bot do if I decided to take an unannounced break from the game, would it start becoming impatient waiting for me?...Would it daydream whilst I was away?...

...
 

nivek

As Above So Below
Does a bot know when its getting its digital clock cleaned by a human?...lol

The Lounge

What would a bot do if I decided to take an unannounced break from the game, would it start becoming impatient waiting for me?...Would it daydream whilst I was away?...

...

A few minutes later...:Whistle:

The Lounge

...
 
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