Mass Shooting in Las Vegas

[CasualBystander]

Also while CB quoted in another post there being 120,000 handguns in Australia, I don't know where they all are. It is a separate category of license, you need to be in either law enforcement or a shooting club. It is absolutely not a mainstream habit for Australian citizens to have a handgun. I believe you can own a cap and ball, historic handgun without a license but I would have to check on that. But break into 100 houses here in OZ and I am betting your not going to find a handgun in one of them. And, if you did, as per our strict gun laws they will be in a locked gun safe etc etc. I have grown up with guns my whole life and only seen a handful of handguns in that time, and that was before our laws changed and I had a mate who was a collector. I don't know anyone with a handgun So again the argument rings true (to me) a kid is not going to come home in an Australian home in a fit of rage and grab dads 38, because we just don''t own them or have them lying around.

The numbers say that gun owning households have an average of 5.6 which is a little less than the roughly 7 in the US.

So the fact that Oztralian guns are so much more likely to be used in crime, in particular homicide, is hard to explain.

 

[Dundee]

The numbers say that gun owning households have an average of 5.6 which is a little less than the roughly 7 in the US.

Your figures mean nothing and miss the point.

So the fact that Oztralian guns are so much more likely to be used in crime, in particular homicide, is hard to explain.

By angle grinding them out of my gun cabinet I suppose, as compared to grabbing one of your mantle piece. I'm done with debating you CB, You are incapable of a rational discussion.You have shown that over and over. You ignore every point and throw some unrelated and irrelevant number back. Pointless discussion with you.

 

[Dundee]

That point is understood and is worth some merit - But what you are forgetting is that in most places {depends on local law], if your toddler picks up a loaded gun you have it lying around and he accidentally kills himself or someone else you could and probably will be charged with a crime.

Nobody, not even the fiercest pro Second Amendment advocate can legitimately argue with personal responsibility when it comes to firearms.

Which is my point exactly, the ready access to firearms is a significant contributing factor to many of your mass shootings.

As far as getting into the type of gun that one can own - This is a value judgement - No gun is safe
- But for that matter neither is a steak knife - If someone you are with'looses it' and goes nuts over dinner,
they could suddenly take the steak enough and...........No weapons law will protect you from this.
- Of course they could outlaw steel knives and only allow plastic but then again there are some pretty strong plastic out there.

A silly argument at best, of course all guns are dangerous. It is not a value judgement. It is a fact that automatic weapons do more damage than non automatic weapons. I mad man with an auto does more killing than a madman with a steel knife. That is a silly CB type comment. I see no reason at all why these types of weapons should be allowed on your streets. I too have grown up a hunter, and never yet needed an automatic weapon. So at least be honest on this one. You folks want to keep them because they are cool fun toys. No other reason.

The main point is, in all those genocides I mentioned, and in places like NK today - Public safety is
always the excuse.

If I remember correctly, and leading up to the American Revolution, King George was trying to do the same thing to the American colonists - One reason, and to this day, the Second Amendment is defended so
fiercely by many Americans.

The draconian gun laws in England might have some logic to them - But at one point didn't Australia
also try to ban the public owning guns? - And didn't the crime rate go up so high they had to recend that law? And wasn't the excuse a loan nut {like Paddock] that your leaders used to attempt to outlaw guns?

Liberal reactionary thinking {some might say exploitation of events} is dangerous, more dangerous than any gun - And the end result is countries like North Korea.

Democracy too can become quite totalitarian - Guns will not completely prevent this - but totalitarian
despots fear that "Well armed militia......" mentioned in the US Second Amendment.

A well armed militia??? What century do you live in. This is the US we are talking about, not 1960s Cambodia. No one is talking about taking away all your guns. Why do you and CB keep missing the point.

Keep your guns.
Just restrict the type a little.
Tighten Background checks for ownwership,
Tighten storage laws,

Your talking about laws that back date to the American colonists???
Comon, please at least be realistic in your arguments.
That's just the lamest excuse, seriously.

 

[CasualBystander]

Dundee, you miss the point. Given that the gun ownership per household is pretty close, there is no reason a pistol in Otralia is more than 5 times as likely to be used in a homicide.

I'm starting to think a gun ban in Oztralia is a necessary evil. You guys appear to be bloodthirsty.

 

[Dundee]

Dundee, you miss the point. Given that the gun ownership per household is pretty close, there is no reason a pistol in Otralia is more than 5 times as likely to be used in a homicide.

I'm starting to think a gun ban in Oztralia is a necessary evil. You guys appear to be bloodthirsty.

Your a bloody fruitcake CB, honestly, your thinking processes is disturbing. As I said, I am done arguing with you. You are part of a powerful minority in your own country. So i am not alone in my views, and much of the world outside of the US (yes their is one believe it or not) agrees with me. Good luck with your guns. I hope they keep you safe and you don't shoot your foot off in the meantime.

 

[AlienView]

I see no reason at all why these types of weapons should be allowed on your streets

Because they are MY STREETS not yours - You have your laws we have ours!

Furthermore:

WOW: New Report Reveals Just How Badly Australia’s Gun Ban Failed…

"Remember Australia’s gun buyback confiscation program? It received more undeserved, empty praise than Lena Dunham’s underwear selfies. Said praise is mostly coming from American liberals, mind you (see Obama Praises Australia’s Gun Ban. The Actual Results…). The funny thing about that? American leftists don’t live in Australia, so they don’t see the results of the gun ban (or they do, and don’t give two craps about “results). Lucky for us, there’s reports that tell us what happened, like this one. Turns out gun control? Not looking so good…


Despite Australia’s strict gun control regime, criminals are now better armed than at any time since then-Prime Minister John Howard introduced a nationwide firearm buyback scheme in response to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre. Shootings have become almost a weekly occurrence, with more than 125 people, mostly young men, wounded in the past five years.

Got that? Emphasis added. For the anti-gun leftist ninnies who pretend to care about people dying.

…More people have been seriously maimed in the recent spate of shootings and reprisals. Crimes associated with firearm possession have also more than doubled… The violence reached a fever pitch in March, when there were two shootings a day for a week.

The investigation has found:

• There have been at least 99 shootings in the past 20 months – more than one incident a week since January 2015
• Known criminals were caught with firearms 755 times last year, compared to 143 times in 2011
• Assault rifles and handguns smuggled into Australia via shipments of electronics and metal parts..........

We’ve known that Australia’s gun control is a big bucket of suck for a while now (see Australia’s Gun Ban Results in More Guns Than Ever… New Findings.). But this adds confirmation gun control doesn’t make people safer. In most instances, it makes people less safe. Hence the major increase in gun-related crimes. This research details the extent of Australian gun policy’s crappage. These are numbers you can use to melt the faces off your liberal friends when they try to tell you we need gun control in the US (see GUN WIN: Missouri Eliminates Unconstitutional Concealed Carry Requirements.). Because no thanks, we’ll keep our Second Amendment. Have fun with those 755 armed criminals, Australia........!!!!!!!!
See whole article here:
WOW: New Report Reveals Just How Badly Australia’s Gun Ban Failed…


"WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED - ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS"

 

[CasualBystander]

Further the Australian gun ban doesn't seem particularly rated to the murder rate:

Even worse, the US murder rate was stable for a while and didn't start declining again until the gun ban expired in 2006.

The US assault weapons ban (given rifles in the US commit less than 2% of homicides) would have had virtually no effect on the murder rate. Certainly not a 40+% reduction.

The recent uptick appears to be gang (particularly MS-13) and drug related. Which is exacerbated by letting MS-13 members just walk across the border.


US murder rate may fall in 2017, contradicting Jeff Sessions' warnings

Even more interesting, the US murder rate (despite liberal blue havens like Chicago) is projected to decline this year.

Obvious 2017 difference - kicking out the illegals and having the Federal government target gangs as a priority.

 

[Dundee]

What a load of Bollux, and you lot accuse me of posting fake news. Good grief. Its laughable.
As Nivek said, I live here, I watch the news nightly. I have seen nothing of this. What a joke.
So I get nailed for grabbing what I genuinely thought were accurate figures, you post rubbish like that.
This whole thing just gets funnier,
Why not try a reliable source.

The Australian Institute of Criminology
Australian Institute of Criminology - Homicide weapon statistics
To quote...
There has been a pronounced change in the type of weapons used in homicide since monitoring began. Firearm use has declined by more than half since 1989-90 as a proportion of homicide methods, and there has been an upward trend in the use of knives and sharp instruments, which in 2006-07 accounted for nearly half of all homicide victims. And other than a recent increase in the last year or two the rise in knife violence although fluctuating has a lesser inclination than the decline in gun related homicides.

As I said, a nutter with a Gun can do far more damage per unit time than a nutter with a knife.

Conclusion, Gun control in Australia works.

 

[AlienView]

Conclusion, Gun control in Australia works.

I'm glad you believe that - I'm sure that Kim Jung-jerk also believes that gun control works in North Korea.
- It does - It ensures his ability to maintain power - no matter what the cost - no matter how many deaths:
Please refer back to:

Gun control, followed by genocides

"Background checks, no problem. Gun registration is a big problem. Every genocide in modern history has started with a gun registration, followed by confiscation, followed by genocide..........."
See whole post on this forum here:
Mass Shooting in Las Vegas

And as far as your:
"The Australian Institute of Criminology"

"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time,
but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
- Abraham Lincoln

And yes gun control does work - I can still hear the 6,000,000 dead Jews {and others} from
Hitler's gun control policies just before WWII 'for public safety' still screaming to the Heavens:

"NEVER AGAIN, NEVER AGAIN"

"You will take my gun away from me - When you take it out of my cold dead hands"

Charlton Heston; From My Cold Dead Hands. Long Version

 

[Caeldeth]

Alien, do you seriously think that a bunch of people with guns are going to stop the might of the United States Military if it wants to commit genocide? All it would take if a couple of M1A1's and a team of Marines and the job would be done with zero casualties on the military side if you had your guns or not. Get real. If the US wanted to commit genocide on its own people you fruits with your guns wouldn't stand a very cold chance in hell.

The 2nd amendment was written at a time when a well armed and REGULATED militia was needed. Back in the time that the amendment was written the US d idnt really have an army or national guard to defend its boarders. Hence the need for a militia. We now have a national guard and military. Times have changed and the laws need changing too.

 

[Dundee]

Alien, do you seriously think that a bunch of people with guns are going to stop the might of the United States Military if it wants to commit genocide? All it would take if a couple of M1A1's and a team of Marines and the job would be done with zero casualties on the military side if you had your guns or not. Get real. If the US wanted to commit genocide on its own people you fruits with your guns wouldn't stand a very cold chance in hell.

The 2nd amendment was written at a time when a well armed and REGULATED militia was needed. Back in the time that the amendment was written the US d idnt really have an army or national guard to defend its boarders. Hence the need for a militia. We now have a national guard and military. Times have changed and the laws need changing too.

My son works at one of my states biggest paintball arenas, 11 huge fields, with different scenarios, desert simulations, trenches, cities etc. He said one day it was booked by a bunch of blokes that happened to also be a bunch of active service soldiers on leave. He said it was awesome to watch, they took on all comers and decimated all challengers to the point of embarrassment. He laughed and said the most common comment all day was, "Thank god there only paint balls" It seems to me to be one of those situations that you think you know what your doing until someone who really does know what there doing comes along and teaches you otherwise. I think the best hope your so called militia would have would be to cause a little inconvenience to an in invading army on your home turf for a very short time. But I suspect t would be short lived. Ever had a play fight with a soldier AV or CB? I have, I recommend emphasize the word play and hope he doesn't hurt you too much. My Dad was a commando, My brother Vietnam, other brother Army. Trust me. Be thankful they are on our side

 

[CasualBystander]

My son works at one of my states biggest paintball arenas, 11 huge fields, with different scenarios, desert simulations, trenches, cities etc. He said one day it was booked by a bunch of blokes that happened to also be a bunch of active service soldiers on leave. He said it was awesome to watch, they took on all comers and decimated all challengers to the point of embarrassment. He laughed and said the most common comment all day was, "Thank god there only paint balls" It seems to me to be one of those situations that you think you know what your doing until someone who really does know what there doing comes along and teaches you otherwise. I think the best hope your so called militia would have would be to cause a little inconvenience to an in invading army on your home turf for a very short time. But I suspect t would be short lived. Ever had a play fight with a soldier AV or CB? I have, I recommend emphasize the word play and hope he doesn't hurt you too much. My Dad was a commando, My brother Vietnam, other brother Army. Trust me. Be thankful they are on our side

I'm pretty sure I've killed more things with a gun than rest of the forum combined. At worse I'm in the top two at around 500. I got to the point I could kill chirping sparrows at 100 yards.

I've actually fired a machine gun before (I was in ROTC for a couple of years) and been about 50 feet from a 155 when it was fired. I've had marksmanship training.

 

[Dundee]

I'm pretty sure I've killed more things with a gun than rest of the forum combined. At worse I'm in the top two at around 500. I got to the point I could kill chirping sparrows at 100 yards.

I've actually fired a machine gun before (I was in ROTC for a couple of years) and been about 50 feet from a 155 when it was fired. I've had marksmanship training.

Well i am glad your confident in your skills Wyatt, I hope for your sake all you ever have to do is brag about them, and never have to put them to the test.
Me however, I am a pretty reasonable shot too. Probably not as good as you, and I bet I haven't killed as many animals as you. However, being able to hit an unarmed untrained sparrow at 100 yards is a tad different to taking on a trained soldier, let alone a large force of trained soldiers. The smart man doesn't know what he can do, he knows what he can't do.

Bruce lee says it all, Boards don't hit back. Sparrows don't shoot back either.

 

[Dundee]

.........................

What more can be said here, I wish you well, in the words of Adam Savage, your motto should be, "I reject your reality and substitute my own" Like I said to Wyatt, I hope you can live happily in your self constructed reality and never put it to the test. I guess that makes you Doc Holiday.
Wyatt and Doc, together in their castle, a Militia of two...

 

[CasualBystander]

Well i am glad your confident in your skills Wyatt, I hope for your sake all you ever have to do is brag about them, and never have to put them to the test.
Me however, I am a pretty reasonable shot too. Probably not as good as you, and I bet I haven't killed as many animals as you. However, being able to hit an unarmed untrained sparrow at 100 yards is a tad different to taking on a trained soldier, let alone a large force of trained soldiers. The smart man doesn't know what he can do, he knows what he can't do.

Bruce lee says it all, Boards don't hit back. Sparrows don't shoot back either.

It isn't a brag. Many farmers have more gun experience than I do. My dad's count was in the thousands.

If you make your first shot count it doesn't matter if it is a board or not.

But there isn't much chance of ever finding out so it is a mute point.

The paperwork for shooting someone in the DC area is so bad I would do almost anything to avoid it.

 

[Dundee]

It isn't a brag. Many farmers have more gun experience than I do. My dad's count was in the thousands.

If you make your first shot count it doesn't matter if it is a board or not.

But there isn't much chance of ever finding out so it is a mute point.

The paperwork for shooting someone in the DC area is so bad I would do almost anything to avoid it.

Well I am really glad it is the paperwork that turns you away from shooting folks, bloody red tape hey. Always such an inconvenience. Me however, I have my own reasons for hoping I never have to shoot someone. Strangely paperwork wasn't one of them. But we all worry about what we do.

As for the board analogy, I think you missed something in translation. You said to make the first shot count. That's the whole point. I suspect most of us would be dead before we even got the chance to make the first shot count. Lol

I did Ninjitsu for just a few months, the teacher was a little bloke about 5"1 Nice fellow, scrawney, looked and spoke like a little old farmer. After a lesson or two I remember him saying, try to punch me. I am not really an agro sort of bloke so I gave it a half hearted swing. He gave me a withered look and said do it properly. After about 3 half hearted go's (i didn't want to hurt the bloke lol what an idiot thought that proved to be)
Anyway finally I did as I was told and shaped up and gave it my best shot.
I don't really remember much about the next bit, other than to say one minute i was standing 10" in height over a scrawny little farmer. The next minute I am flat on my back, with his knee on my chest and his fist stopped about an inch from my nose. It turns out he was one of the guys teaching self defense to our armed forces.
The moral of the story. Leave the fighting to those trained to do it. Otherwise you'll just be in the way.

 

[Caeldeth]

I've had extensive and grueling training on how to shoot just about anything you want to put into my hands. Ive recieved extensive marksmenship training as well. With a Barrett .50 I can hit a target from about a half a mile away though I much rather have an M39 since it's not as heavy or as loud. My personal favorite weapon of choice would have to be the M27 with a .50 deagle on my hip. Point is anyway is that I've shot and killed targets thay were shooting at me. You have killed various critters. If the US wanted to start genocide on its own people you wouldn't stand a chance against well trained military personal.

 

[CasualBystander]

Well I am really glad it is the paperwork that turns you away from shooting folks, bloody red tape hey. Always such an inconvenience. Me however, I have my own reasons for hoping I never have to shoot someone. Strangely paperwork wasn't one of them. But we all worry about what we do.

As for the board analogy, I think you missed something in translation. You said to make the first shot count. That's the whole point. I suspect most of us would be dead before we even got the chance to make the first shot count. Lol

I did Ninjitsu for just a few months, the teacher was a little bloke about 5"1 Nice fellow, scrawney, looked and spoke like a little old farmer. After a lesson or two I remember him saying, try to punch me. I am not really an agro sort of bloke so I gave it a half hearted swing. He gave me a withered look and said do it properly. After about 3 half hearted go's (i didn't want to hurt the bloke lol what an idiot thought that proved to be)
Anyway finally I did as I was told and shaped up and gave it my best shot.
I don't really remember much about the next bit, other than to say one minute i was standing 10" in height over a scrawny little farmer. The next minute I am flat on my back, with his knee on my chest and his fist stopped about an inch from my nose. It turns out he was one of the guys teaching self defense to our armed forces.
The moral of the story. Leave the fighting to those trained to do it. Otherwise you'll just be in the way.

I've done some Tae Kwon Do. I understand.

The big problem that the US Military encountered is that most people are natively reluctant to shoot each other.

The percentage of people who were effective in combat in WWI was really pathetic. So military altered their training methodology. Don't have time to dig up the article on this.

An actual attack by the US on its citizens wouldn't be very clean. Plus there are more military outside of the military than in the military. The sort of attacks you're describing wouldn't be palatable to many of the soldiers when done against US civilians.

I would do considerable prep if I was actually concerned. Plus I would study current military doctrine and and attack "outside the box".

 

[Caeldeth]

The big problem that the US Military encountered is that most people are natively reluctant to shoot each other.

The percentage of people who were effective in combat in WWI was really pathetic. So military altered their training methodology. Don't have time to dig up the article on this

"If your killer instincts are not clean and strong, you will hesitate at the moment of truth. You will not kill. You will become dead Marines."

Seen it a few times. Hesitation kills.

 

[Dundee]

.........................

Honestly CB, I don't know how to debate you anymore. You just seem to miss the point, and each time someone points out something that makes sense, you seem oblivious to it and jump to something, I don;t know, not really relevant.

I am aware of what you are talking about in WW1, but that's a tad different to a bunch of farmers taking on your Modern 21st century Military.

Of course it would not be palatable, however if it was ever ordered the circumstances would have to be awfully extreme and I suspect the job would be done.

As for more military outside than inside, who knows where each person would stand, it would depend on the circumstances and the reason for the fight. So neither of us could make assumptions on a hypothetical like that without a scenario and I suspect more smarts than you or I have.

As for study? Could you have learned your Tae Kwon Do from studying a book?
Do you really think you could go grab a Military training manual and be a match for these blokes.
Comon, be serious. You said your a farmer. Could a New Yorker read a book on farming and come and do what you do?

As I said in a much earlier post and as Caeldeath said here. Your 2nd amendment was relevant at the time, for the situation at the time. But it is outdated and no longer relevant to the spirit it was originally written.
You would be no match for a trained Military force, US or otherwise.
You would be more likely to shoot each other than any invading army.
The truth is, you guys like your big guns cos there fun and you don't want to give them up, I get it.
But all this stuff you and Doc Holiday are bringing up is just grasping at numbers to defend an undefendable position. Keep shooting your varmints as you call them, go have fun with your guns. But please, don't pretend your going to match the Military, that just makes you look silly and insults them.