Mass Shooting in Las Vegas

Dundee

Fading day by day.
In My house, they are locked and secured as per my previous description. Also as per Australian gun laws, my guns are fairly tame.

Your house has loaded guns lying unsecured, ammunition unsecured, and guns such as semi autos, as per your previous descriptions.

Something unforeseen happens, we each have a break in, a family member goes mad or whatever.
Given our situations, whose house is more likely to provide a means for a single, multiple of mass shooting?
Yours or mine?

I was answering your question.

I've had a home break-in when I was in the house.

Your view on guns and their use against an intruder is naive and misinformed.
CB, It just took too long to repeat, please refer to my latest response and apply it to you. I apologize for past insults, please try and understand my post.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
OK, so I am a microsecond from giving up, I have done my best in this thread in my last post or two to make amends and apologize for past insults, and make my point. If yous come back at me with more stuff ignoring any questions, or more shit hanging about the OZtralian, I agree to disagree with you, and I am done. Cheers to you both,
 

AlienView

Noble
But you have to understand how different our countries and people are
Thanks for the apology it is accepted!

But when you say:

"But you have to understand how different our countries and people are" - Honestly I'm almost shocked.

I always thought of Australians as kind of like the rugged individualists that made America a great nation.

Aussies I thought were similar and there was a time when I seriously thought of moving there.

Now that I'm older guns don't mean as much as they used to - But still I'm so used to living under the
admittedly sometimes dangerous protection of the Second Amendment - So that I could hardly imagine living in a
country that doesn't offer this right {self-defense , even by lethal force if deemed necessary}.

And one other thought for today as I will be away from my computer for awhile - Mexico, next door to the US, also has rather strict gun laws - And Mexico probably has some of the greatest number of armed gangs and drug dealers in the world. I know you might say they are getting them from the US - But if Mexican drug cartels couldn't get them here , they would find a way.

Again the same cliche applies:

"When Guns are Outlawed - Only Outlaws will Have Guns!"

-Peace
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Thanks for the apology it is accepted!

But when you say:

"But you have to understand how different our countries and people are" - Honestly I'm almost shocked.

I always thought of Australians as kind of like the rugged individualists that made America a great nation.

Aussies I thought were similar and there was a time when I seriously thought of moving there.

Now that I'm older guns don't mean as much as they used to - But still I'm so used to living under the
admittedly sometimes dangerous protection of the Second Amendment - So that I could hardly imagine living in a
country that doesn't offer this right {self-defense , even by lethal force if deemed necessary}.

And one other thought for today as I will be away from my computer for awhile - Mexico, next door to the US, also has rather strict gun laws - And Mexico probably has some of the greatest number of armed gangs and drug dealers in the world. I know you might say they are getting them from the US - But if Mexican drug cartels couldn't get them here , they would find a way.

Again the same cliche applies:

"When Guns are Outlawed - Only Outlaws will Have Guns!"

-Peace
In defense of Aussies,
I will use my second eldest son as an example.
He is 24, got one son, one more on the way.
He is a builder, loves cars, and bikes. Typical Aussie Kid.
And, I also accept while us Aussies have folks like my sons, there are exceptions in today day and age that are different.
I expect it is the same in the US.

Anyway, this is an Aussie , or at least the Aussies that I have raised according to the values passed down to me by my Dad.

My son was driving into town one day, and stopped at a Red light, He looked across and saw a bloke on the ground, getting a belting from 2 blokes. He watched for a few seconds and the blokes did not relent their bashing.
So, Zack being who he is, wound down the window, and yelled, hey, you have made you point leave him alone.
they yelled back, Get Fucked idiot, and kept kicking the bloke.
OK so at this point he sighed and all he saw was, 2 onto 1, the bloke is down, he has copped a beating, enough is enough.
So Zack pulled on the handbrake in the middle of the intersection, and much to the panic of his girlfriend at the time got out.
He walked towards the fight and said, I said he has had enough, now fuck off and leave him alone. One bloke bolted, the other looked at him and pulled a knife and started walking towards him.
Zack just laughed, walked back to his car and grabbed out of the back what he called, an "Alabama Slammer" which is a builders framing hammer, a bloody great long thing. He turned and walked back and said to the bloke righto mate bring it on. The bloke bolted, Zack helped the bloke on the ground.

Another time, and this one put me in my place big time.
One night he didn't come home, he arrived middaysish the next day and I said, "Where have you been you little bugger you didn't ring"
He said, Naa couldn't, I got locked up for the night by the cops.
OK I said, ill bite, so what happened.
He said, well I came out o this night club and there were these three Mary's giving this bloke a belting.
I asked, "Mary's?" Yeah Marys he said. Still not knowing what he was on about I said..
What do you mean Mary's, you mean Gay blokes.
No he said, you know Mary's those big blokes from New Zealand with tattoos on their faces.
Suddenly it dawned on me, I said, You mean Mouries,
Yeah he said, those big New Zealand blokes.
Finally understanding I asked him, So how did you end up locked up.
He said, well 3 onto one isn't fair so I hopped in and helped him.
he said eventually the cops arrived and they all got locked up. As an aside, he had 3 broken ribs before the fight from a motorbike fall.
So my dad brain kicked in and I said, Jesus mate, that's great, but that was a hell of a risk.
I can understand you might do that for your best mate, or a family member, but you didn't even know this bloke.

He looked at me as if I had said something dumb and said.
Dad, that bloke was someones best mate.
I confess I teared up, what can you say to that.
All my 4 sons think like this.
But here is the point.
At no time did it, or would it ever occur to him to want, need, expect or require a gun.
If my boys and I visited your house on a holiday, I introduced you as my friend from the US.
if 15 mins later you were attacked, all four of my sons and I would fight our way to hospital in your defense as a mate.
But not once would it occur to any of us to look for a Gun.
This is what it is to be an Aussie.

As for the gun comment, We will just have to agree to disagree :)
 
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CasualBystander

Celestial
I can't believe I have to have this conversation, I think you are both quite mad!!

Last try, after this, I just plain and simple give up. Please, just this once, try and stay with what I am saying and address it directly. Just this once if you can.
I am going to present 3 hypothetical scenarios to you for your consideration, see if you can follow, and tell me where I am wrong with MY SCENARIOS.
Forget figures, we both know we can hunt up numbers to support any position.
Forget laws and rights as gun owners, forget Wyatt, Doc and the Oztralian, just consider only my 3 hypothetical situations. Please, just this once try and stay on topic.


1. Planet X has 10,000 people on it 1000 are armed criminals who will always have guns because criminals will always find a way. However, you and I are the only people other than the criminals out of all the people that have guns.

In My house, they are locked and secured as per my previous description. Also as per Australian gun laws, my guns are fairly tame.

Your house has loaded guns lying unsecured, ammunition unsecured, and guns such as semi autos, as per your previous descriptions.

Something unforeseen happens, we each have a break in, a family member goes mad or whatever.
Given our situations, whose house is more likely to provide a means for a single, multiple of mass shooting?
Yours or mine?

So common sense says in scenario 1. Gun control will work not work well, but my house is safer. You cant argue with that.

2. Planet Y is now the same, but everyone can have guns, we still have the 1000 always armed criminal, but everyone can have guns, but, some neighborhoods have strict gun laws, like here in OZ, some neighborhoods have relaxed gun laws like in the US.

Because the laws are inconsistent, people can just go where they need to get guns, they can ship them, buy and sell them, transport them. So, planet Y has gun laws that do not work, because they are just too easy to get around because they are not consistent across the planet, and don't apply to every one. This in my opinion is the US and why you say it wont work. I agree with you, in the US, this type of thing wont work.


3. Planet Z has the same population as X and Y, still has its 1000 ever armed criminals, but has consistent planet wide strict gun laws like Australia, no exceptions. Every single gun owner in every neighborhood must adhere to the strict storage and ownership laws. On this planet, gun laws work because there are No exceptions, and no guns lying around.

My Conclusion, and please tell me where I am wrong.
Planets X, will always have 1000 armed criminals with the possibility of 1001 if your house is broken into and your unsecured semi autos stolen or used by a crazed family member.

Planet Y, will always have 1000 armed criminals, plus an abundance of easily obtainable guns for other new criminals, crazed family members, angry husbands and wives, so you have an uncontrollable situation because the gun laws are strict in some places, not others and thus unenforceable.

Planet Z will have 1000 armed criminals, and 9000 people subject to very strict, controlled and policed gun laws. Guns are not easily stolen, and are safely stored. All owners are screened and taught. Planet Z is the safest environment. This Is Australia


Now please remember I am not talking about your rights as Americans, or your constitutional laws.
just and only just 3 hypothetical planets without politics, Planets X, Y, and Z.

Tell me where my thinking is wrong.
Gun laws on planet Z work the best.

Any law will only work if it is applied consistently, you and Doc take your figures from scenarios that are all true and valid, but have no meaningful relevance because your gun laws and no gun zones are ineffectual becus you all live on planet Y.

Please don't throw me more numbers, or some stupid insult about Australians being untrustworthy with guns, just stick to my examples. Just this once.
There is little if anything factual in this post to respond to.

1. I think you are both quite mad!! I am very rarely angry. Most people who know me have never seen me angry.

2. Three hypothetically scenarios... This reminds me of brain storming and situational ethics. I sat through some situational ethics scenarios one time and they just show how immoral and unethical the left is.

3. Forget figures,.. Forget laws and rights as gun owners... Yup. Leftists always have to step away from reality to make their point because reality refutes them.

4. Scenario 1. I covered this. If there is a home invasion by multiple perps a mass killing is the desired outcome. Where I live, once you start shooting you want to make sure they are unable to refute your version of events or sue you, to avoid losing everything you have. Where I live emptying your clip into the perps is mandatory. You want a large first clip since reloading is generally viewed as evidence of premeditation.

In my view you would be shot before you would ever be ready to fire your weapon.

If someone in your house goes crazy you institutionalize them in controlled conditions for a while.

5. Scenario 2 Planet Y is now the same, but everyone can have guns Well, in this scenario break-ins in most areas (those without gun control) would be infrequent and the criminals would pick on the gun-free areas.

6. Scenario 3. What you don't seem to understand is that over half the gun homicides are gang or drug related. And while the use of a gun in arguments has declined since 1980 the use of guns by gangs has risen to virtually 100%.

Weapons are fungible so for personal arguments clubs, knifes, poison etc. would take up some of the slack.

The number of criminal homicides would probably increase since violent crime would increase and guns are used in 8 % of violent crime.
 
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CasualBystander

Celestial
OK, I give in, I am done with this thread. Clearly we will never agree.

Screen-Shot-2017-10-04-at-11.55.53-AM-copy-840x420.png


102717_Tank_F-800x500.jpg


A Texan bought an M4A4 tank and parked it in front of his house.

The right keep and bear arms the way it should be.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ary-collection-auctioned-off-in-ca-84010.html

There is still a Panzer tank available if you pony up the dough.
 

Dundee

Fading day by day.
Got to have the last word hey. The fact I give in is not because you won btw, its because its a waste of time talking to one so ridiculous. A tank no less. Good grief.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
Got to have the last word hey. The fact I give in is not because you won btw, its because its a waste of time talking to one so ridiculous. A tank no less. Good grief.

We can neither win nor lose.

We have to agree to disagree.

The traditions and viewpoint difference between Australia and the US really don't allow another outcome.

As a sad note:
On the 1 month anniversary of the shooting they still don't have a clue why he did it.

There is something desperately wrong with the picture if they can't hint at a motive after a month. Stanford is getting his brain for microscopic study. That is called grasping at straws.

For him to leave so little trail and devote energy to covering his tracks speaks to some larger story.

Again, this shooter is so far off the traditional script it is hard to find a precedent.
 
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AlienView

Noble
As a sad note:
On the 1 month anniversary of the shooting they still don't have a clue why he did it.

There is something desperately wrong with the picture if they can't hint at a motive after a month. Stanford is getting his brain for microscopic study. That is called grasping at straws.

I used to read books on true crime - anthologies like an encyclopedia of crime I read years ago shows the world
has had many psycho criminals capable of many herendous crimes - many serial killers who got away with
many murders, sometime over a period of years, before being caught - some where never caught.

So what more motivation do you need? - A clever psycho hell bent on murder and mayhem - And if couldn't use guns it would have been bombs - I think he had bomb materials as well as the guns.

Why are we so naive? - These types of crimes have been going on for years.

Maybe there is a satanic cult out there that recruits new members - Or just plain insanity?
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
I used to read books on true crime - anthologies like an encyclopedia of crime I read years ago shows the world
has had many psycho criminals capable of many herendous crimes - many serial killers who got away with
many murders, sometime over a period of years, before being caught - some where never caught.

So what more motivation do you need? - A clever psycho hell bent on murder and mayhem - And if couldn't use guns it would have been bombs - I think he had bomb materials as well as the guns.

Why are we so naive? - These types of crimes have been going on for years.

Maybe there is a satanic cult out there that recruits new members - Or just plain insanity?


To be frank, he is too old to commit this crime without prior experience. He had no criminal history. This is the first shooter to drive from a retirement community to town to commit mass murder. He was too rich to be a mass murder.

The similar sorts of acts are committed by people under 30.

He left the trail of someone who is used to covering his tracks.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/268044/vegas-atrocity-political-opportunity- -matthew-vadum
All sorts of fun quotes:
As for Hillary, the yet-to-be-indicted failed former secretary of state started her day yesterday making nonsensical statements indicating she doesn’t understand guns and how they work, not to mention physics.

4Chan has a post speculating that he was ex-CIA that keeps getting deleted.

As should be obvious I'm a bit of a skeptic, but there is something odd about the situation.

I could almost buy in to the satanic cult theory, but I believe it was something else.

His younger brother's recent arrest adds fuel to the fire.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
I haven't seen much more press regarding this since it happened but last I heard did he not lose a fortune gambling and that is what caused him to snap???

They really don't know. We do know he started stockpiling firearms in October 2016. That is suspicious.

The fact that his trail was either carefully covered or is being studiously ignored is also suspicious.
 

Captain Tinkle

Honorable
They really don't know. We do know he started stockpiling firearms in October 2016. That is suspicious.

The fact that his trail was either carefully covered or is being studiously ignored is also suspicious.

Fair enough. Quite surprised they haven't found a motive yet. I briefly saw images of the arsenal that he had in the hotel room. Surely alarm bells should have rang when he purchased that many guns (one presumes they were purchase legally and registered).

I am pro-gun ownership however I do think there needs to be more regulation in the United States. You could argue you are punishing responsible owners but I am afraid in society nowadays, it seems we have to be accountable for the idiots who misuse the system.

Take here in the UK for example. All my friends own various guns. Mostly shotguns that some can be tens of thousands of pounds to buy. All are responsible gun owners. This is partly down to the fact that you have to apply for a shotgun licence (separate licence for rifles) which they have to renew each year. Only reason I do not own a gun is because I am not interested in Clay Pigeon shooting as my friends are, but I would love to go small game hunting. However to do so you need the permission of a land owner so have never bothered to do so.

The Police (it is one officer who is in charge in this county for gun ownership but I will say Police in general terms) I believe then interview you during the application for a licence and make an appointment to come round your house to check that you have a suitable metal cabinet that is bolted to a brick wall in your house, hidden in a room where you would normally only have access. For example this could be in your roof or bolted to your bedroom wall. The ammo has to be stored separately from the weapons and the keys for the gun cabinet on your person at all times. Everytime you buy ammo you need your licence to do so and it is recorded by the shop.

Every year the Police check your house to ensure the proper standards are kept. If you choose to sell one of your weapons you need to inform the Police that you are doing so and sign over ownership to the new owner.

I also have a friend who is a Royal Marine. Last time he was on leave he was looking to get a 22. rifle to use on the range on his base for target shooting. He is having to jump through many more hoops than my other friends such as physiological tests not because they are worried that he would go Rambo on the general public but that he would use the gun on himself due to the prevalence of PTSD in the military. From what I know he has served in Afghanistan twice and spent nearly a year defending shipping from Somalia pirates. Some of the horrors he has described are too shocking to repeat. He understands why extra checks are needed and I also think it is a good thing they are doing so.

I don't know how practical a similar system would be in the United States as obviously the UK is a smaller place and typically I would say it is only really people out in the countryside who own weapons. The wait time however for the Police to do their checks here is not far removed from the waiting period in some states in the United States.

Idiots will always find a way to get their hands on weapons so it is a very difficult problem to solve. However you do have to admit there is some sort of problem because these shootings keep happening. Something is not working...
 
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