Pilot Wave theory suggests Trumpet shaped Emdrive would have more thrust

Discussion in 'Alternative Technologies & Energetics' started by CasualBystander, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    The 'Impossible' EM Drive Is About to Be Tested in Space

    It uses electromagnetic waves as ‘fuel’, creating thrust by bouncing microwave photons back and forth inside a cone-shaped closed metal cavity. This causes the ‘pointy end’ of the EM Drive to accelerate in the opposite direction that the drive is going.

    The pointy end is sucked in the direction of the larger end.

    I'll skip truisms about large ends sucking less and just note that the way the the drive is described, the small end pulls the device backward (negative thrust).

    People are used to rocket nozzles where the big end pushes.

    EMDrive is exactly backwards. The small end pulls. So the device goes the reverse direction from a similarly shaped rocket nozzle.
     
  2. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    This quote puts it into a simple description but it's still not clear to me, what directs these microwaves?...What converts electricity into microwaves?...

    em-drive_3390456b.jpg
     
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  3. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Appears to be a standard BNC 50 Ohm connector and would be connected to the RF source with a 50 Ohm cable.

    [​IMG]

    A couple of facts you are missing.
    1. The RF generator is an external COTS variable frequency RF source usually in the 2.4 GHz band. The amount of thrust varies with frequency and power.
    2. The chamber is "High Q" and the radio waves bounce around over 1000 times before being absorbed by the can.
    3. The chamber is filled with a low loss plastic.
    4. A superconducting chamber would have 100-1000 times more thrust because the RF would not be absorbed.


    As a side note - this looks like it was made in his garage. A commercial/military unit would be a lot slicker.

    And further research has theorized that it should be trumpet shaped. The small end is too big and costing thrust. The RF "pushes" it forward (it moves to the right).
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  4. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Just mumbling about something, never mind.
     
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  5. 3FEL9

    3FEL9 Islander

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    Usually your mumbles are interesting to read and .. well as long as you keep the politics out of the equation..

    You do realize that once these EM drives are perfected they will become a huge threat to the fossil fuel industry..

    Zero point energy will seal their fate
     
  6. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    There may be way to derive zero energy. This isn't it.

    Physicists claim there could be enormous zero point energy, but you can't harvest it for the same reason you can't extract energy from a one ton weight sitting on the ground - it is in equilibrium. A one ton weight located 4000 km above the earth is a different story, that is how HVWs work.

    The thrust of a fully developed EMDrive is going to be about the same as two or three people pushing a car. And is going to weigh far less than the car.

    In space that is a lot of thrust for negligible weight and just smokes most of the proposed alternatives.

    But we don't use a lot of fossil fuel to get into orbit. And I don't believe fossil fuel will be threatened by EMDrive.
     
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  7. 3FEL9

    3FEL9 Islander

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    EM Drives + Anti Gravity + Zero Point Energy will make fossil fuel very redundant down on the ground.. I say its just a matter of time, before its put in good use. Dr. Greer knows about the cover up.
     
  8. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Yeah, right.

    Dr. Greer is a doctor of MEDICINE.

    That is the wrong kind of doctor to make pronouncements on anti-gravity.
     
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  9. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    What type of plastic is considered a low loss plastic?...Polycarbonate or polycarbide maybe?...Would the superconducting material need to withstand force? Could ceramics be used or is niobium-titanium or something stronger needed?...
     
  10. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Dielectric loss - Wikipedia
    ECCOSTOCK® Low Loss Dielectric Materials - Emerson & Cuming Microwave Products


    Polystyrene foam usually.

    Don't know about the superconductor materials (would have to research), but if the material superconducts at 40K they could use a standard cyrogenic cooling arrangement.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
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  11. 3FEL9

    3FEL9 Islander

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    Plastics that can withstand highvoltages and doesnt present a load to the imposed RF waves ?

    I played around with a magnetic loop some years ago. 100 Watts of RF got transformed to thousands of volts and burned through some cable insulation. Not a EM drive but a EM transformator..
     
  12. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Reminds me of a Kincheloe AF guard who used to use one of the radar domes to warm up on cold nights.

    They did more than 10X power upgrade.

    The next time the guard visited the radar dome he got cooked.

    Humans are a lossy dielectric.
     
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  13. 3FEL9

    3FEL9 Islander

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    Heh,, poor guy. Wonder what turned up on the operators scope..

    Yeah thats the normal use of RF, heating or signaling ... Propulsion ,, we will see about that. Later on hopefully
     
  14. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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  15. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    The theory is cool, and if It is proven, then the improved methods will come.

    gotta start somewhere...

    So, basically, a bunch of miniaturized pyramid versions of these could be combined into a single thruster cluster on a plate a few inches thick... thinning the atomic atmosphear in front of the object it is attached to, and condensing it toward the back... yeah, pulling electrons around thEentire hull, pushing them toward the back... basically riding on the very (thin) fabric of space, Surfing in a way... the faster it goes the more condensate collects behind the craft... creating a bigger wave of condensate, pushing even faster...

    Zoooom!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  16. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Not sure how multiple engines will interact.

    I believe the engines will create a pilot wave zone of influence around them and am not sure how nearby engines will react.

    Haven't seen any papers on this and if it was mentioned didn't understand that it addressed this issue.

    If someone sees a definitive paper on multiple engine interaction I would be interested.

    I don't know that you are wrong, but I don't know that you are right, I just don't know.
     
  17. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    Each reactor is its own container, so effect should be cumulative, and each reactor will only produce a certain yield, so several small ones would be better than a single larger unit.
     
  18. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Could be right but I would need to brush up on the physics before I venture an opinion.

    Have a nagging thought that I read that acceleration reduces thrust. If I can find an article on that I will post it.

    Given the low accelerations involved in real world situations this probably isn't relevant. A Mars vessel couldn't generate enough power for high acceleration.

    Don't think the EMDrive itself will be the limitation but cooling and power supply to drive will be.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  19. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    If, instead of constant thrust, the vehicle has constant acceleration, the engine thrust must decrease during the trajectory.

    Acceleration does not reduce thrust.
     
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  20. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    But thrust on this case is a manipulation of energy envelope, condensing energy behind the object to provide lift. Similar to a wing, where the air above the wing is disturbed to create low pressure, the air below the wing provides lift.
     

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