Reversing Time?

Discussion in 'Science, Tech, & Space Exploration' started by nivek, Sep 6, 2019.

  1. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Could they be misinterpreting the data or the results?...

    Scientists used IBM's quantum computer to reverse time, possibly breaking a law of physics.

    The universe is getting messy. Like a glass shattering to pieces or a single wave crashing onto the shore, the universe’s messiness can only move in one direction – toward more chaos and disorder. But scientists think that, at least for a single electron or the simplest quantum computer, they may be able to turn back time, and restore order to chaos. This doesn’t mean we’ll be visiting with dinosaurs or Napoleon any time soon, but for physicists, the idea that time can run backward at all is still a pretty big deal.

    Normally, the universe’s trend toward disorder is a fundamental law: the second law of thermodynamics. It says more formally that any system can only move from more to less ordered, and that the chaos or disorder of a system – its entropy – can never decrease. But an international team of scientists led by researchers at the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology think they may have discovered a loophole.

    Computing power
    For their experiment, the scientists used IBM‘s simple public quantum computer program, which uses two qubits – two units that, like a regular computer bit, can be a one or a zero. But unlike regular computer bits, qubits can also take a form called superposition, where they are both one and zero at the same time. In this way, they follow the laws of quantum mechanics, which are less clear-cut than the classical world humans inhabit.

    The scientists set up the computer so that both qubits are zeros. According to quantum laws, the simple passage of time will cause the computer to fall out of this order, so that the qubits are soon in a random assortment of ones, zeros, or both. But scientists can also cause this to happen by running a program on their simple, 2-qubit computer.

    The scientists then ran a different program, which tells the computer to run “backward.” They then ran the first program again, and were able to recover their original, zero-zero state about 85 percent of the time. They published their results March 13 in Scientific Reports.

    The tricky part of the program is telling the computer to run backward, effectively making time run backward. Scientists investigated this “in the wild,” by isolating a single electron and calculating how long it would take for random perturbations in the universe to cause such an effect. They found that even if they studied 10 billion electrons every second, it would take the lifetime of the universe for such a phenomenon to happen just one time.

    That’s why you’ll never drop a handful of glass shards and see them leap together to form an unbroken mirror, while a dropped mirror will almost always splinter into many pieces. The system will always tend toward disorder.

    But by forcing order to rise from disorder with a quantum computer program, scientists may have found a way around this basic physical law.

    .
     
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  2. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    Gods...the headlines of pop science articles just keep getting worse.

    What they've done here is no more "reversing time" than playing a movie backwards.

    "If you believe what you read on the internet, it’s been an exciting 24 hours for quantum physics.

    The headlines have been incredible. Newsweek (Scientists Have Reversed Time in a Quantum Computer), Discover (Scientists Used IBM’s Quantum Computer to Reverse Time, Possibly Breaking a Law of Physics) and the UK’s Independent newspaper (Scientists ‘Reverse Time’ With Quantum Computer in Breakthrough Study). Cosmopolitan magazine also chimed in: Scientists just turned back time and it’s like Back to the Future is coming true. There are many, many more.

    The trigger for all of these was a Scientific Reports paper with the provocative title “Arrow of time and its reversal on the IBM quantum computer.” In it, the authors claimed to have performed an experiment that opens up lines of research, in their words, toward “investigating time reversal and the backward time flow.”

    If you had difficulty understanding how scientists accomplished such a counterintuitive feat, don’t worry. They didn’t."
    More: No, scientists didn’t just “reverse time” with a quantum computer

    From a theoretical physics point of view, the local rate of time can be increased or decreased. But travelling backward in time makes as much sense as moving a negative magnitude of distance; I doubt that such a thing will ever be possible because it's logically nonsensical.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
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  3. spacecase0

    spacecase0 earth human

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    the idea of logic likely applies to time,
    it is just the assumption that time flows beginning to end is likely wrong
    from what I can tell time flows from the least likely timeline to the most likely timeline

    for a moment think about changing the past...
    if you do it, you have just erased all the evidence of what you have just done.
    what most people want as proof is a timeline that is the least likely one,
    the same one that is from time flows the other direction from...
     
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  4. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    I don't know,
    I've been thinking. Gravity=time repeatedly, Then I get to dark matter, A Gravity=time. Pulling at our Gravity=Time. Could Dark matter be reverse time? like the opposite of how time flows here, A polarity flip or something? in the flow of Gravity or time itself,

    There should be a Time/Gravity Equation,.... There has to be one.

    But you know, I've smoked on this Vape, It tastes like Grapes, I went to my weed guy, Who is now my Vape Guy, Dude Had Grape Flavored THC Garbage pail kids vape carts. It's the best stuff ever. Like ever, So if finding Grape Flavored garbage pail kids that get you high is possible. Then I fully purpose the likelihood of reverse time.
     
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  5. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    There is one - it's called gravitational time dilation. Time moves more slowly deeper within a gravitational field than it does further outside of one.
     
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  6. spacecase0

    spacecase0 earth human

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    I am convinced this is the correct idea about gravity
     
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  7. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    I thought as much lol, hence the question mark following the title of the thread, I started reading that article and my mind trailed off to a Doctor Who episode and this clip from it:

     
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  8. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Honorable

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    Huh, gravity might just turn out to be a very ordinary property of matter, like temperature.
     
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  9. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    I don't know. to me, gravity seems to be an outside force pushing rather than pulling, interacting with matter certainly, but not necessarily a property of the matter directly, I feel there is some sort of outside force or pressure that counteracts with matter rather than a direct result of matter generating gravity itself. but this is all just thoughts and speculation. I could be mistaken.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2019
  10. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    Nope... Gravity is in. As inside matter. Fantastic stuff... it is the engine behind almost all movement, life forms, element properties, and quite simply greatest stuff n the universe.... but it is a property of matter itself... denser matter has more gravity, larger bodies have proportionately larger gravity... It can’t be manipulated much... we can only exist with it.. we can’t change it.
     
  11. Double Nought Spy

    Double Nought Spy Easily Amused

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  12. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    That sounds like Le Sage's theory of gravitation - Wikipedia. It's a neat idea but it doesn't work out - it can't explain gravitational time dilation, for example.

    Perhaps the most compelling reason to conclude that matter itself is the source of the gravitational field (rather some other agent interacting with matter to produce gravity) is the stunning finding of the Baryon Oscillation Spectroscopic Survey (BOSS) collaboration back in 2014. They measured the curvature of the observable universe, and found that to within observational accuracy (99% +/- 1%), the universe is flat.

    That means that the universe appears to be infinite in extent. In other words, the part of the universe that we can observe is literally an infinitesimal speck of the whole universe (the reason we can't see the whole universe is because at a certain distance the expansion rate of the universe exceeds the speed of light). If you find that troubling - you should. Because if the universe has expanded from a point-like object to its current (apparently infinite) size in the last 13.772 billion years or so, then it would've had to expand infinitely fast to become infinitely large today. We can only hope, as rationalists, that the universe isn't infinite in expanse after all after we make a better measurement someday in the future....because an infinite universe in a finite time makes no kind of sense.

    But here's the other thing that haunts me every day: if the universe is topologically flat, that has to mean that every unit of mass-energy in the universe (positive mass-energy) is perfectly balanced by the negative energy of the gravitational field that's associated with each unit of positive mass-energy.

    What that seems to tell us is that mass-energy and gravity are linked at the most fundamental level - that the positive mass-energy of a photon or a proton is perfectly balanced by an equivalent magnitude of gravitational negative potential energy: they're two sides of the same coin. So it must be more accurate to think of a photon as a "graviphoton" and a proton as a "graviproton," because at the cosmic scale both possess zero net mass-energy. This must be true for the observable universe to be flat and therefore to possess no net mass-energy overall and yield a null curvature overall.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019 at 2:13 PM
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  13. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Thanks for the reply brother, I can't get to it right now, I've baked in the hot sun all day and Now I'm trying to cool down so I can sleep, I promise, First thing tomorrow, I will read this and reply, Always down for science, :D
     
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  14. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    :music:
    Hehehe. We are all just riding on the equivalent of God’s Vinyl Record.

    Lol. I love that visualization... God standing at his HIFI, listening to the music... having a glass of bourbon, and we are a tiny bump... causing one tiny spike on the waveform of God’s Music....
     
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  15. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Sorry, it took me so long to get back to this, Today was a rough day, sorry brother.
    I can't Quite say Where I Acquired The Concept that Gravity was a product of Matter interacting with another force. I listen to a lot of podcasts. It could actually be some of Le sage's work I picked up somewhere, Everything I know about Physics is something I learned from somewhere, It very well could be Le sages theory.

    , You make an excellent point about Time dilation though. Mass energy and Gravity all being linked at the fundamental level, Is this, That Grand unification theory I've been reading a lot about? connecting Strong/weak Electromagnetism/Gravity together?
     
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  16. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    This may be more on point than you realize. I tend to avoid religious terminology, but your metaphor invoking a vinyl record is very much in keeping with an idea that's widely accepted by relativists, and strongly supported by my own theoretical work in that area, known as the "block universe model." Einstein believed in this model, which basically states that the whole universe - past, present, and future - exists as a single 4-dimensional object which we move through, producing the illusion of time unfolding, when in fact everything exists as a predetermined whole. In other words, although our subjective experience unfolds in a way that gives us the illusion of free will, everything that you've done and everything that you will do was encoded onto the "vinyl record of the universe" at the moment of creation, and plays out in a perfectly predetermined manner.

    Lately I've been wondering if the universe had to play out exactly as it's playing out in order to exist in the first place - because if the universe is indeed an immutable 4D object, then the final boundary conditions are as critical as the initial boundary conditions. So it could be that intelligent life will one day do something (probably technological) at a cosmic scale that permits the universe to exist in the first place. Dr. Frank Tipler has explored this idea (rife with theological overtones) and I thought it was a misguided idea until I fully appreciated the theoretical arguments in support of the block universe model and its implications for quantum field theory.

    No worries G - we're here for the enjoyment of it so there's no pressure to respond in any hurry.

    I don't know what you've been reading, but as far as I know, nobody has devised a viable Grand Unified Theory (GUT) yet. This concept of the gravitational field as an intrinsic feature of mass-energy, which perfectly balances out its positive mass-energy with an equivalent negative potential energy gravitational field, does seem to be a likely feature of a GUT. But it's not the complete story - we seem to need a very explicit understanding of the nature of gravitation and spacetime itself. Entropic gravity might be the key there - I have more studying to do on that, and I'm hoping that Dr. Alzofon - a physicist who Dejan has been studying - might add more detail to that model.

    If there's one thing that we can learn from UFOs/AAVs, it seems to be that spacetime can be manipulated Very effectively using easily attainable energy levels. And that suggests that everything we know about gravitation only encompasses the effects of a more fundamental underlying cause. And once we really understand that underlying cause (which basically reduces to the nature of the coupling between mass-energy and gravitation) then we'll be able to produce technological effects that in many ways resemble the wildest forms of magic found in our most imaginative works of fiction.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 9:11 AM
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  17. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    I am confused.
    ...if the universe is indeed an immutable 4D object, then the final boundary conditions are as critical as the initial boundary conditions. So it could be that intelligent life will one day do something (probably technological) at a cosmic scale that permits the universe to exist in the first place. ...


    Well if it is immutable how can we cause our own beginning? That is just weird...

    Reversing time, or going backwards in time just seems like a complete impossibility as well.

    Effects of space travel at high speed, yes I get how a disparity can occur going forwads... just can't see how that works in reverse at all.
     
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  18. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    Consider the universe as a whole and immutable 4D object. It's possible that not all universes would be stable - i.e., not all universes would possess the required symmetry to exist in the first place. It could be that our particular universe exists only because something that happens in the future fulfills the requisite boundary conditions of a stable 4D universe.

    This could explain why our universe appears to be so ideally suitable for intelligent life to arise: intelligent life would be uniquely suited to understand the physics of this system and, one day, deliberately manipulate the universe on a cosmic scale in such a way that the proper boundary conditions are met at the end of the universe's life cycle so that it can exist in the first place.

    In this model, neither free will nor any backward-in-time signalling is required; the universe is simply physically possible because the initial and final boundary conditions possess some kind of symmetry that a universe requires in order to arise in the first place.

    A simple analogy might be useful - consider a photon that's emitted from one atom and absorbed by another. We tend to think of the photon as a particle that exists independently of the emitting and the absorbing atoms. But from the photon's reference frame, there is no time. So for the photon, it's emitted by one atom and absorbed by another simultaneously. In other words, it won't exist in the first place unless its origin and its destination are predetermined, and satisfy the precise symmetry conditions required for the transmission of energy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019 at 5:28 PM
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  19. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    I also don’t see humans ever being able to fly at the speed of light, under any circumstances... we couldn’t even manage it if we figured out that it was merely a transference of a quantum state. There would always be a bit of lag in our technological processes to get us there, and we would be lucky if we don’t get absorbed by matter around us if we could do that.., so...

    Anyway, I see what you are saying... but this stuff is way beyond even our best computations if you ask me.

    Math is a great language that some how combines art with reality in a way that makes the artful side a kind of distraction from the intentions originally propagating the math equations in the first place.

    I am amazed what we have created in the theoretical... and exploration of such should not stop by any means. I am all for it. It is just that, theoretical physics is beyond physical realities.

    No doubt there will be some dramatic technological advances and discoveries due to these theories but the true fabric of the universe will reveal itself to be immutable in a way that is humbling to us once we know the realities...
     

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