Roswell, can we finally let it go?

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by Wade, Aug 14, 2018.

  1. Castle-Yankee54

    Castle-Yankee54 Celestial

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    Its more likely that Ramey's superior changed the story to weather balloon to draw attention away from what it really was.

    Just because Marcel was an intelligence officer doesn't mean he was read in on what was found.....Ramey might not of been either as it all depends of what his position entailed. One thing for sure they knew it wasn't a normal kind of balloon.

    I find it funny that some people still say it was a weather balloon.
     
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  2. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    agreed it was either a mogul or a manned fugo balloon, neither wich are "normal"
     
  3. The shadow

    The shadow The shadow knows!

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    20180904_125332.jpg
    as mentioned in the lounge I just got a copy of this book any one have any thoughts to share on this work of fiction?
     
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  4. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    There was no argument, you didn't have a pot to piss in from the start...:Whistle:

    Some almighty, all mischievous, cosmic trickster, really???...b0033

    ...
     
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  5. The shadow

    The shadow The shadow knows!

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    is this the same cosmic trickster Chris O'Brien is so fond of? or something else?
     
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  6. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Not sure which alleged gods Chris takes a shine to...

    ...
     
  7. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    Yeah, there really isn't any distinction between the "supernatural" models of AAV reports - in fact the closer you look at them, the more vague they appear. To the point that nobody can actually explain to you where this cosmic trickster came from, how it works, or how any of it makes sense in any rational manner.

    And that's the key point: a "cosmic trickster" isn't an explanation at all - it's just substituting one unexplained mystery (AAV sightings) with a different unexplained mystery (a supernatural force performing feats of magic in our skies).

    You can't call it "an explanation," because it sheds no understanding at all upon the subject. In fact, it does just the opposite: for the cosmic trickster hypothesis to be correct, we have to throw out pretty much everything we know about physics, evolution, archaeology, and abandon analytical reasoning altogether...and instead go back to Dark Ages thinking where magical invisible omnipotent entities from spiritual realms go around toying with people (apparently because omnipotent supernatural beings have nothing better to do with their time than prank the local primates).

    It's such a silly idea that I'm stunned that anyone in the modern world with a third grade level of education could even casually entertain it. It's like the crazy idea I've heard from the most deeply fundamentalist Christians when they claim that Satan buried dinosaur bones in the ground to undermine people's faith in the Bible. The cosmic trickster in this case just replaces Satan as the supernatural agent, and UFOs take the place of dinosaur bones - but it's the same awful, irrational thinking.

    And the only arguments I hear from advocates of this dopey idea, is that the ETH is "overdone" and "lots of zany people believe in it."

    But the same thing could be said of the theory of evolution: it's all that those dang biologists seem to talk about, and a lot of kooky people believe in evolution too. Note that neither of those factors have any significance regarding the correctness of the theory of evolution. And the same is true of the ETH, which in my view is no longer a hypothesis, but a full-fledged scientific theory. Because not only has it made a number of successful scientific predictions, but the growth of scientific knowledge in several independent disciplines over the last few decades has powerfully supported its likelihood as the correct explanation.

    At this point, the existence of advanced extraterrestrial life forms with interstellar spaceflight capability is the only rational scientific explanation on the table (setting aside cases involving exotic natural phenomena like ball lighting, and misidentifications). I'd love to see some other alternatives, but none of them hold up to scrutiny, and the cosmic trickster idea is the silliest, most flagrantly superstitious notion out there, on par with elves and fairies and the pantheons of dead religions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  8. Rick Hunter

    Rick Hunter Noble

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    I've always found it strange that the USAF put in so much time and effort to come out with that book. They don't answer to the general public nor are they under any obligation to cater to anyone's curiosity. Did they actually produce any declassified documents from the incident? As in, reports submitted by the USAF officers and men who were on the scene? Regardless of what it really was, there should have been hundreds of pages of documents generated by all the personnel involved.
     
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  9. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    I remember the crazy fiasco that unfolded in 1993-95 when Representative Steven H. Schiff, NM, decided to look into the Roswell incident by requesting the Air Force records from that time period.

    First he asked the Air Force to declassify and provide him with all of the official material from the incident, but instead they referred him to the National Archives, which he took as an insulting brush-off, because it was. The National Archives promptly told him that they had nothing. So Schiff filed a formal request with the General Accounting Office (GAO), which is the investigative arm of Congress. Then suddenly the Air Force had records after all – that’s when the Project Mogul story came out, in lieu of any actual records from the base dating from the time period in question, which the Air Force claimed had been destroyed without proper authority. But of course whenever military records become classified, they respond to requests for them by saying that they’re destroyed/nonexistent.

    Even the Washington Post reported that the GAO believed that the Air Force was lying:

    “Investigators at the General Accounting Office are quietly skeptical about whether the Air Force told the truth when responding to a controversial request for information by a member of Congress in 1993.”
    ROSWELL INCIDENT' REVISITS AIR FORCE

    That whole article is fascinating, by the way.

    Eighteen months earlier, Schiff had said this, in another Washington Post article about his efforts to get records about the Roswell incident:

    "'Generally, I'm a skeptic on UFOs and alien beings, but there are indications from the runaround that I got that whatever it was, it wasn't a balloon. Apparently, it's another government coverup,' Schiff said."
    GAO TURNS TO ALIEN TURF IN PROBE

    Schiff issued a press release about his frustrations with the Air Force regarding his request for Roswell documents:

    PROJECT 1947 - Congressman Schiff's GAO/Roswell Press Release

    The whole thing was a disaster – the Air Force couldn’t have fanned the flames of suspicion any harder if they’d tried. First they lie to a Congressman and deny the existence of any records. Then they claim that the records were destroyed but they can’t explain why they were destroyed. Then they suddenly offer a new explanation in the form of Project Mogul. Then the Washington Post reports that the GAO thinks they’re lying. If you wanted to make people think that there’s a cover-up, that’s like a manual on how to do it.

    Three years later Schiff died from an aggressive form of skin cancer at the age of 51. And even that seems suspicious in light of other tragic cancer deaths of UFO researchers, and the widely known allegations that the CIA had developed cancer-causing assassination tools back in the 60s.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
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  10. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    Roswell was the first prominent UFO/Alien event which came into the national and international awareness and starting point for many studying the subject.

    @Thomas R. Morrison makes strong arguments for its legitimacy as a real ET event and, despite some ufo researchers dismissing it. Obviously we will not let it go and in fact, now with disclosure creeping in, we return to it even more, to degree we can

    Unlike some here who go either with the physical ETs or paranormal explanation of the phenomenon, I'm in the camp of accepting both physical ETs from other worlds in our universe along with inter or trans-dimensional ones. I don't outright dismiss the paranormal explanation but the "trickster" version presented here by humanoidlord not one I subscribe to.
     
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  11. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Interesting links and thanks.

    In light of the recent news regarding the US Embassy in Cuba the use of microwave weapons seems credible. As to whether UFO researchers were targeted I suppose it would have to be proven that their deaths were a statistical anomaly compared to the rest of the population. Cancer has a way of striking like lightning - admittedly weaponizing it would be a more elegant solution than what the Russians have been accused of in the UK.

    The June 1 1995 Washington Post article seemed to put the finger on the root of the case. The loss of a nuclear weapon and/or an experimental aircraft, especially in that area at that time would account for the involvement of high level officers, a cover up, use of heavy vehicles and the like. Human crapulence could explain bungled press releases etc. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. I recently took a look at the Hudson Valley 'wave' and others have brought up the Morristown, NJ hoax. You could probably throw Rendlesham on the pile too - all examples of how eyewitness and expert testimony caused the real story to grow legs. In the case of Roswell it wouldn't be hard to see the military actually making use of it - losing nuclear weapons isn't exactly something they would be overly happy to be forced to reveal. The known incident in Spain in '66 was something they just couldn't cover up. If something like that happened and they could .... they would.
     
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  12. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    it is quite compelling and probally close to the truth
     
  13. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    its my theory
     
  14. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    probally not, the only thing i know abou chris is that he is a loser that thinks webcams will save the paranormal
     
  15. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    there is a distinction between sane models (remenber that book i told you about?) and ridiculous models (ie tulpas or the co-creation model)
    so you are going to abandon a theory that explains all anomalies of the UFO phenomena so you can appeal to the corruption that is modern science academia?
     
  16. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    You only say that because a crash retrieval operation would blow your supernatural explanation of UFOs completely out of the water.

    Supernatural explanations are irrational and superstitious by definition. There's a natural, rational, physical explanation for everything. The march of progress is defined by the expanding sphere of our understanding.

    How could you miss my point so completely?

    Your hypothesis explains nothing, because the hypothesis itself requires a rational explanation. What's the origin of this "extradimensional ultraterrestrial" that you assume exists? Where does it reside? What's it's physical nature? How long has it been around, and why don't we see evidence of its evolution on Earth within the geological or archaeological records?

    You can't answer any of these questions because the idea itself is irrational and woefully nonspecific. In fact it's far harder to try to answer any of those questions, than it is to simply posit that we're being visited by very advanced species that originated in other star systems, which by virtue of their more advanced technology and civilizations, are in some ways perplexing to us.

    And only people who don't understand academic science attack it as "corrupt." The adversarial nature of the scientific process and the peer review process serves as the best refereeing mechanism that humans have ever devised - and its success is proven by your computer and cell phone and the GPS system and the Moon landings. Without science, we'd still be stuck in the Dark Ages, thinking that God was punishing us whenever there was a drought or a plague or a flood or an eclipse. And if superstitious thinking like yours were to prevail again, that's where we'd end up again - in a new Dark Age. No thank you: I'm moving forward with the rest of humanity, not backwards into darkness and ignorance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
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  17. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    they just destroyed the documents because they guessed they would have no use, that is until the 70's came and roswell was re-discovered
     
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  18. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    it saddens me to the core to see a real scientist with a PHD like you to fall into the bottomless pit that is UFO mythology.
    i have yet to see anything suspicious about the deaths of those fellows and consider that in the realm if alex jones-ish conspiracy theorism
     
  19. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    not true, roswell was a forgotten case until the late 70's, before that the big one was the mount rainer sighting in 1947 that started it all
    this is something people have been saying for decades, i doubt a obscure singer and mr zondo will change that for the better
     
  20. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    it would, but conveniently i have found none evidence for these cases, and what people claim to be evidence is actually paranoia fuelled thinking
     

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