the 2020 election

Discussion in 'Present & Current Events' started by The shadow, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. AlienView

    AlienView Honorable

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    Sure he talks a good talk about his fantasy socialist utopia - But I see this as harmless.

    Even if he were elected President very few if any on his policies would fly
    - He won't even get most Democrats to go that far left let alone any Republicans.

    He reminds me of a '60s style hippie who refuses to give up.
    Remember that song 'This is the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius" by the Fifth Dimension
    - I still play it once in awhile - I too have not given up

    - But I'm a realist, a policy must be proven to work for it to be implemented and accepted.
    And killing the economy by taxing the rich to death will not work.

    But there are compromises that will.
     
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  2. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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  3. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Is anybody watching the Nevada debates?

    I know that the entire system is corrupt and that the oligarchy is comprised of reptilians, but

    WTF??
     
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  4. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    When I cashed my paycheck the National Debt Clock in NY slowed a tick. I paid and still do the highest tax rate in the country. Who pays for all this pie in the sky crapola?
     
  5. Standingstones

    Standingstones Celestial

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    He’s right. Do we have to go into the rest home and pick the oldest retirees to run for president. Warren, Bloomberg, Sanders, Biden and Trump all in their seventies. Get out the wheelchairs!
     
  6. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    The people of this country are so completely brainwashed by the corporate "news" media that they actually defend the sociopathic plutocrats who are bilking them of their money and opportunities...smh.

    Fact #1 - Bernie's "fantasy policies" are the centrist norm among all of our closest international allies (universal healthcare, universal higher education, fair taxation, etc.).

    Fact #2 - The US enjoyed a thriving economic boom and the largest middle class during Eisenhower's presidency from 1953-1961 when the top marginal tax rate was 91%. Whereas today people like you and me pay more taxes than Jeff Bezos and General Motors - and both made billions in profits last year and paid nothing on that income. Economies boom when the wealthy pay more taxes because that money gets spent on programs that create middle-class jobs and a healthy national infrastructure. But today the US tax system is closer to neofeudalism because the wealthiest pay the least and the poorest pay the most of their incomes in taxes.

    I assume that by "all this pie in the sky crapola[sic]" you mean "healthcare for US citizens who would otherwise die without it, and a college education that doesn't bankrupt our children."

    Part of it gets paid for by increasing the pathetic current tax rate on people making more than $1M/year, and the rest comes from a tiny tax on stock and commodities transactions (which the London exchanges already impose on their equities and commodities markets, with no adverse impact on trading).
     
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  7. AlienView

    AlienView Honorable

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    Bermie makes one big mistake, and of course some small ones.

    He is too eager to call himself a 'Socialist' - A word of many meanings now a days.

    Socialist in modern usage has come to mean 'conspiracy' to many people
    - Its not just a more equal redistribution of profits - but has often come to mean a conspiracy of elites
    {ie. the New World Order} trying to enslave the World - Of course, and no matter how you define it,
    money talks.

    And the Democratic Party, the party of JFK, has more and more been calling itself 'Progressive' {ie. socialist}

    From what I've read Socialism has always had a big following in the US - but losses elections.

    Americans might like, and go for, a lot of the Left wing policies of Sanders and the other Democrats
    - Long as they stay just to the right of Socialism

    So Medicare for people who really need it is acceptable - but if your going to destroy the private health
    insurance industry, you make big enemies, including some of the people who are using private insurance
    and are happy with it.
     
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  8. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    When Bernie calls himself a socialist he's invoking the democratic socialism of our closest allies like the UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, the Netherlands, etc. It's kind of stupid for people to get hung up on a word. Obviously he's not referring to the brands of socialism embodied by the fascist Nazi state or communism. The corporate news media is the one making a big deal out of this word. All of our fire departments, our military, our primary and secondary education systems, our police departments, etc., are socialist by definition. He just wants to expand that to include college-level education and healthcare, like all of the other first-world nations have already done with great success. No country that has shifted to universal healthcare and universal higher education has ever gone back, because it works and people like it. Medicare is the most popular health program in the country and Bernie just wants to expand it to include everyone.

    Private health insurance costs twice as much as universal healthcare - the US would save about $450B/year by eliminating the middle man; the health insurance companies. And private insurance is not as good because the private insurers work to block essential scans and treatments to increase their profits.

    In any case, like I said, universal healthcare and universal higher education are only considered "left wing" by the far-right-wing corporate news media. That stuff is centrist everywhere else in the world, as it should be here. The fact that it's considered to be "left wing" in this country only proves that our entire government and corporate news media are all right wing, and have been for decades. Public healthcare and higher education are basic services that any first-world government should provide to its citizens using public tax dollars. Instead we've been programmed to believe that our tax money should go to endless mass murder operations abroad, and to fund welfare programs for corporations and billionaires. Our entire system is fubared. When ordinary people argue that public healthcare and education are implausibly extravagant daydreams of how a society should function, then you know you're living in an Orwellian dystopia.

    The fact is that 2016 proved that Bernie would crush Trump in a general election: the RealClearPolitics polling averages showed that Bernie had a steady and crushing 10-15% lead over Trump in the general election match-up polls. But the corrupt MFers controlling the DNC rigged the nomination for Hellary anyway, and she was barely clinging to small single-digit leads the whole time. That's why Trump won. If the corrupt MFer Democratic leadership rigs this primary against him as well, then they'll lose again.

    Frankly I think that they'd rather lose to Trump than win with Bernie, because they made that choice last time, but I'd love to be wrong about it this time around.
     
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  9. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I was about to go on a much longer post and decided there was little point in it. I think we can all agree on some things - that we live in an information bubble, that military spending could be put to better use elsewhere and that the level of corruption and waste is grotesque.

    Everybody's for socialism until it affects them, then they're capitalists. As long as the money comes from someone else's pockets all is well.

    None of what I saw on stage last night looked like a viable answer. It looked like a feeding frenzy. Answers to specific questions was just more emotional rhetoric.
     
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  10. AlienView

    AlienView Honorable

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    This time it's a little more complicated.

    Why does multi, multi, billionaire Michael Bloomberg, a Republican, and now supposedly born again Democrat suddenly, after saying he would not, step in and create more disharmony inside the Democratic Party by running for President?

    Or, could that be exactly what he is there for - To assure no Progressive/Socialist will win?

    My hobby is interesting conspiracy theories - read books on it years ago.

    You have to admit that the only one benefiting from Bloomberg's suddenly deciding to run for President,
    is the Republican Party and Donald Trump.

    From what I heard about the debate last night {I can't stand watching Bloomberg, so I missed it}
    is that Bloomberg was ill prepared, to say the least - He may be getting old but I doubt he is senile
    = but maybe he is and running for President is his last hurrah.

    Still the conspiracy side of my brain says - Its him and Trump - Money is power among the fat cats
    - and the'll do anything to stop left wing Socialists from reducing their control ?!?!

    The health insurance industry is a multi billion dollar monolith that will not go down without a fight
    - A few years ago when one of the major, if not the biggest player in health insurance, was giving me
    a hard time on a very simple payment for hospital expenses for a close relative, using the 'in network',
    'out of network' shuffle, when their own book showed hospital was in network at time of service
    - I did some research, and found that that insurance company had been indicted for racketeering under
    the RICO {organized crime and corruption} Act - Well today they are back on top!

    Do you really think they are going to let a Socialist Democrat take away their business?

    Michael Bloomberg says he is tuning to defeat Donald Trump - I doubt that is the main reason
    - The main reason is to keep the oligarchy in power, Be it Trump or him, similar agendas.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
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  11. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Administrator

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    Yes. I don’t know if many people know this so let’s go over it briefly.

    After the DNC/Clinton/Corporate news media cabal used the undemocratic and un-American and possibly unconstitutional superdelegates to rig the 2016 primary, the DNC was pressured to abolish the revolting superdelegate system. So the DNC settled for a compromise: the superdelegates won’t get to vote on the first ballot of the 2020 primary. But if any one candidate fails to get >50% of the pledged state delegates in the primary, then there will be a second ballot…and the superdelegates can vote on that second ballot.

    So whereas in 2016 the DNC discouraged candidates from running against Hellary in the primary, in 2020 they’ve flooded the field with candidates so nobody will get >50% of the pledged delegates, and the superdelegates will once again select the nominee just as they did back in 2016.

    And they’ll certainly not nominate Sanders, the only candidate with a clear path to defeating Trump, so they’ll lose to Trump again.

    That’s right. The elites have done and will do anything and everything in their power to prevent Sanders from being nominated.

    They’re already fighting tooth-and-nail to prevent a Sanders presidency. And they may succeed in stopping him again this time.

    But sooner or later we must defeat the health insurance industry, because we can’t afford to pay double for our healthcare, and too many people are dying by not having the money to afford basic healthcare services.

    Indeed - we can agree whole-heartedly on all of those points.
     
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  12. AlienView

    AlienView Honorable

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    Watch Highlights Of The Democratic Debate In 5 Minutes | NBC News
     
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  13. wwkirk

    wwkirk Celestial

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    Bloomberg quietly plotting brokered convention strategy

    LAS VEGAS — Mike Bloomberg is privately lobbying Democratic Party officials and donors allied with his moderate opponents to flip their allegiance to him — and block Bernie Sanders — in the event of a brokered national convention.

    The effort, largely executed by Bloomberg’s senior state-level advisers in recent weeks, attempts to prime Bloomberg for a second-ballot contest at the Democratic National Convention in July by poaching supporters of Joe Biden and other moderate Democrats, according to two Democratic strategists familiar with the talks and unaffiliated with Bloomberg.

    The outreach has involved meetings and telephone calls with supporters of Biden and Pete Buttigieg — as well as uncommitted DNC members — in Virginia, Texas, Florida, Oklahoma and North Carolina, according to one of the strategists who participated in meetings and calls.

    With Sanders’ emergence as the frontrunner in the presidential primary, Democrats in those states have recently raised the prospect that the democratic socialist could be a top-of-the-ticket liability.

    “There’s a whole operation going on, which is genius,” said one of the strategists, who is unaffiliated with any campaign. “And it’s going to help them win on the second ballot … They’re telling them that’s their strategy.”

    It’s a presumptuous play for a candidate who hasn’t yet won a delegate or even appeared on a ballot. And it could also bring havoc to the convention, raising the prospect of party insiders delivering the nomination to a billionaire over a progressive populist.

    Other candidates have quietly been in contact for months with superdelegates — the DNC members, members of Congress and other party officials who cannot vote on the first ballot at a contested national convention — but none have showcased it as a feature of their campaign, as Hillary Clinton did in 2016.

    Asked about Bloomberg’s efforts, spokeswoman Julie Wood said Thursday, “We have an enormous apparatus that is constantly reaching out to all types of people for support and to explain why we think Mike is the best candidate to take on Donald Trump."

    The rule prohibiting superdelegates, or automatic delegates, from voting on the first ballot of a contested convention was instituted only after the last convention, which followed a primary in which superdelegates overwhelmingly sided against Sanders and with the establishment-oriented Clinton.

    The reduction of those delegates’ power was a major victory for the Democratic Party’s left flank, while many Democrats, regardless of ideology, believed it could help broaden the party’s appeal to young voters skeptical of centralized party power. Earlier this year, when a small group of DNC members began gauging support for a potential policy reversal to allow superdelegates to vote on the first ballot, DNC officials quickly dismissed the idea, and even proponents of a change acknowledged they could not get traction for it.

    If Sanders secures a plurality of delegates but loses the nomination on a second ballot, many moderate and progressive Democrats alike predict the national convention in Milwaukee would devolve into chaos.

    Bloomberg’s effort comes as the prospect of a contested convention becomes less and less remote. That development is in part because of Bloomberg’s own late entry into the race. The billionaire former New York City mayor’s deluge of spending on television advertisements and campaign infrastructure put him into contention, while further muddling the Democratic primary field.

    Many moderates, including Bloomberg’s supporters, fear that the centrist vote may be divided, allowing Sanders, the more progressive senator from Vermont, to reach the convention with more delegates than any of them.

    If Sanders accomplishes that — but fails to amass the 1,991 delegates necessary to clench the nomination on the first ballot — superdelegates could prove pivotal, a possibility raised in Wednesday’s presidential debate.

    Asked if the person who arrives at the convention with the most delegates should become the nominee, even if he or she falls short of a majority, Sanders said “the will of the people should prevail” and that “the person who has the most votes should become the nominee.”

    In contrast, Bloomberg and every other candidate suggested convention rules should dictate the outcome — meaning only a candidate with a majority of delegates should claim the nomination.

    Following the debate, former Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who has endorsed Bloomberg and chaired the 2012 Democratic National Convention, said a second ballot will likely be required this year.

    “I think everybody’s going to be scrambling for delegates,” he said. “And I think all the candidates made that clear, except for Sanders.”
     
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  14. The shadow

    The shadow The shadow knows!

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  15. The shadow

    The shadow The shadow knows!

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  16. AlienView

    AlienView Honorable

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    Could be true - Still a matter of opinion.

    But why pick on Biden when one of the riehest men in the World has decided to buy the United States?

    Anyone thinks rule by power is the prime requisite - than why don't we turn the country over to him?
    - Why have an election at all?

    His appearance on the 'Democratic' debate stage the other night is an insult to whatever is left of the
    political party that once produced men such as John F. Kennedy, FDR, Harry Truman, etc.

    The Republican mayor of NYC decided he could not get enough control of people - Everything from
    limiting the size of soft drinks sold in NYC {overturned in court}, stop and frisk, and bank rolling
    campaigns against the Second Amendment all over the country, etc., etc.
    - So he just buys into the Democratic Party, declares himself the defacto leader and then insults
    everyone in the party by saying I'll just advertise myself enough and surely will win.

    And they talk of Trump began corrupt?

    Trump is a saint compared to Bloomberg who reminds me of a super-villain from a James Bond Movie,
    like remember 'Goldfinger'?, bent on taking control of the World by hook or crook!

    How much, and which Democratic honchos did he buy off to get them to change the rules and let him appear
    at that debate?

    Remember what Trump supporters kept saying, during the 2016 election,' lock her up' when referring to
    Hillary being corrupt.

    If the Democratic Party had a trace of a soul left, when it came to allowing Bloomberg to buy-in, and buy them
    out - They should have said throw the bum out!

    No Democrat, in fact no American with a functioning brain should be taken in by this attempt
    to buy the United States.
     
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  17. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Watched a Trump rally last night. Regardless of what your opinion about him is, he knows how to work a crowd.
    Standard mechanisms at work, you could probably flowchart it.

    Some weird combination of demagogue and stand up comedian. Like Hitler mixed in with Don Rickles. I couldn't help but laughing out loud at a lot of it - it was entertaining. And cringing too.

    Interesting times.
     
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  18. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Been thinking about ‘free college education for all ‘. It’s more granular than just graduating high school and then moving on to a four year college.

    Here in New York TAP awards for state residents and Federal Pell grants are available for low income and working people. They’ll get someone through our local community college and continue to help them if they want to transfer and pursue a four year degree. They also apply to BOCES vocational schools. They were available in 1980 when I needed them and as far as I can see, still are, largely unchanged. The assistance will reduce if not eliminate the cost of tuition and books but even put some cash in your pocket to help with other things.

    Those programs are more than enough to get anyone sufficiently motivated to get started. With the vocational schools very often continued training comes along with the job through an employer and often a trade union. Not everyone wants to go to college but there are opportunities to acquire skills no matter which path is taken. This works well regionally and would likely take a slightly different form elsewhere.

    You want to start a small business and expect funding for it you have to produce a business plan. Might not work but you should have some idea what you’re going to do with someone else’s money first.

    I haven spoken at length with a young family member and her friends who have student debt and are having a hard time finding job they want. Frankly, their ‘business plans’ as to exactly what the hell they intended to do with their degrees were not realistic. They don’t seem to have any sense of personal responsibility for their situation and are more than willing to jump on the victimization bandwagon. That’s like someone who took out a business loan for an idea that proved unworkable or – importantly – required more effort than they were willing to give because they didn’t think it through sufficiently.You got a degree is history? Fantastic, I'd love to do that but unless you intend to be a teacher what exactly are you going to do with it? Or meteorologists that don't want to live near any major market that might support their skills, or a communications major that has no interest in .... much of anything really. But they all lament not having jobs, or ones that don't pay sufficiently to allow them to pay off their debts.

    In whatever form it might take, I’d like to see greater emphasis given to certain disciplines than others. Not to say that you shouldn’t get funding if you wanted to pursue a degree in literature, but maybe teachers, engineers, programmers, nurses, HVAC and automotive techs etc would have more opportunities. More so as they go along based merit. But saying things like 'merit based' and 'personal responsibility' are falling out of favor. 'Gimme gimme gimme' is all the rage.

    I sit looking at job postings every single day. There doesn’t seem to be a lack of work for those with marketable skills. The blather coming out of the TV paints a picture of victimhood that really does bear closer examination.

    Oh, and this is just a quick add on - it’s worth pointing out that at least in this state the lottery system pumps tons of money into the education system that would otherwise come from taxes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  19. Standingstones

    Standingstones Celestial

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    My nephew is now two years into practicing as a podiatrist. His college debt is all paid off. He told me what his medical school debt is and it is obscene. Under the current circumstances he will be paying that debt for the next thirty years. He is one of the fortunate ones who has a viable career. I pity those people who chose a subject where no jobs will be available to them. I understand why they are backing Bernie Sanders.
     
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  20. AlienView

    AlienView Honorable

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    As it is happening real time Sanders now seems to be winning by a landslide in the Nevada caucus.

    You got to admire someone giving his all, even after having a heart attack wihch would have caused lesser men
    to quit - He's going stronger than ever - risking his life for the cause he believes in.

    I still say his biggest mistake is using the word 'Socialism' - In the modern World there are more negatives
    connected with this concept than positives.

    Otherwise his programs are more or less in line with the current 'Progressive' agenda.

    Of course, even if he wins, few, if any, of his most leftist ideas will happen - 100% of Republicans will
    try to block anything he tries to do {as they mostly did with Obama} and many more conservative
    Democrats will not go along with policies that will destroy the multi billion dollar health insurance
    business.

    But he will probably make some progress.

    And he is right - It gets kind of sickening watching maybe 90% of wealth in this country going to the
    top 1% - A 1% that includes men like Donald Trump and Michael Bloomberg !!!!!
     

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