The Extradimensional Ultraterrestrial Hypothesis: Superstition Masquerading as Science

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by Thomas R. Morrison, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    While the rational analytical thinkers in the field of ufology were fighting for a modicum of scientific legitimacy over the last few decades – and slowly but surely gaining some ground via the Kepler Mission findings and a few key advancements in theoretical physics, a subculture of folks who are mostly scientifically illiterate decided to abandon the scientific method entirely and posit an alternative supernatural explanation that kneecaps all of our efforts at gaining mainstream scientific credibility, which is the first step toward an actual scientific investigation of this subject.

    It’s referred to by a variety of loosely related phrases (and sometimes employs meaningless non-words like “ultraterrestrial”):
    • The extradimensional ultraterrestial hypothesis
    • the co-creation hypothesis*
    • the multidimensional intelligence hypothesis
    • the cosmic trickster hypothesis
    • the virtually omnipotent demon hypothesis
    *Note: this usage of the phrase turned out to be a perversion of its progenitor’s intentions (see: Greg Bishop), entirely attributable to ignorance and wishful thinking. Greg’s own understanding of his “co-creation hypothesis” boils down to perceptual psychology. Not some magical process where the human mind interacts with an unseen supernatural force to manifest physical objects in the sky, as others such as Gene Steinberg have repeatedly claimed.​

    The general idea is the same: rather than manifestations of advanced nonterrestrial technology operating in our airspace, these folks are suggesting that anomalous aerial vehicles (AAVs) aka unidentified flying objects (UFOs) are instead the product of some kind of supernatural entity which is intentionally deceiving us to make us believe that we’re being visited by advanced alien civilizations.

    If that sounds absurd to you, then you’re right – it is absurd. But people are actually saying this. And the people who believe in this medieval-style supernatural explanation are extremely patronizing and self-righteous about it – they want you to believe that your faculties of reason and scientific understanding are blinding you to the “one true supernatural reality” behind this phenomenon.

    At first I listened to what these people had to say and tried to find a scientific model that would reflect their idea, without being BS. And some of the words they were using sounded like they might have some physical validity: words like “extradimensional” and “multidimensional” sounded akin to concepts in superstring theory, and M-theory, and the many-worlds interpretation of quantum physics. So I started digging through the scientific literature to see if I could find some way that these folks might be right – to see if there could be hidden physical dimensions of reality for some inscrutable cosmic trickster to be hiding in, beyond the veil of human perception.

    Here’s what I found.

    While superstring theory and M-theory postulate additional spatial dimensions beyond the three that we know and love, all of those additional dimensions are compactified down to the size of the Planck length, 10^-35 meter, which is 10^20 times smaller than a proton. Obviously that’s vastly too small for any kind of matter or complex systems of any kind to exist. Also, there’s still zero evidence that superstring theory, M-theory, or Brane theory, reflect any physical reality; they remain entirely theoretical ideas bereft of supporting empirical evidence of any kind. Predictions of new phenomena offered by these theories, such as the production of microsingularities in high-energy particle collisions, have been tested at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) and they’ve all failed. And deviations from the inverse square law of gravitational attraction at very short-range scales, which were predicted by some of these theories, have also been experimentally tested and they’ve failed as well.

    So we find no evidence of small extra dimensions. What about large ones?

    Physicists can explore the dynamics of higher physical dimensions very easily with the exquisitely reliable tools of mathematics. We covered one such paper which addresses precisely this subject in the Physics Frontiers podcast that we just recorded this weekend. It’ll be a few weeks before that episode is edited and uploaded, but here are the key findings:

    In spacetimes with >3 spatial dimensions, no stable structures can exist: there are no stable orbits for bodies like planets to orbit stars because the force law becomes inverse-cubed or greater, and those force distributions don’t permit stable dynamic configurations. With higher spatial dimensions, an electron cannot stably orbit a proton, so even hydrogen cannot form. No system can exist in bound dynamic equilibrium, so no structures can exist, which rules out complexity. So obviously our region of the universe doesn’t possess any macroscopic higher spatial dimensions beyond the three we know.

    What about higher dimensions of time? It turns out that with more than one dimension of time, there are two big problems. One, particles can’t achieve bound states because their energy carries them off in different directions through time; they can pass one another, but they can’t bind together because they’re always moving in different directions through time as well as space. And the second problem is even stranger: it’s impossible to make any predictions in a universe with more than one dimension of time. The result of every experiment would appear to be random. So if the same initial conditions yield random results, it’s hard to see how cognition could evolve in a spacetime with more than one dimension of time – there are no intelligible relationships to observe which can yield predictions about events, even when the initial conditions are identical to begin with. Obviously we don’t live within a region of the cosmos with more than one dimension of time.

    But it is possible, according to some theoretical physics models, that our region of the universe is fundamentally different than other regions of the universe which are beyond the cosmic horizon of the observable sector of the universe. And perhaps our considerations of higher dimensions are flawed, and intelligent life of some kind could arise in those regions somehow.

    They’d still have to travel from those regions beyond the horizon of our observable universe, to get here. So that hypothesis is still an extraterrestrial hypothesis. And the distances traveled are vastly greater than the interstellar or even intergalactic distances that are the key to the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH), so the prevailing form of the ETH is extremely conservative by comparison.

    Alright, so we’ve basically ruled out microscopic and macroscopic extra dimensions - but maybe there’s some kind of entity here on Earth that we can’t perceive for some reason. Let’s consider that.

    Given that such a life form would have to exist within our 4D spacetime, it would have to evolve in some manner, just as we evolved from simple chemistry to organic matter to highly complex organisms. Here’s the problem: we see no signs of any unexplained evolutionary processes in the geological record. We have a reasonably complete record of our own evolutionary process, and those of the other life forms on the Earth. But we see no evidence of either unexplained organic evolutionary beings, or any kind of exotic signs of other forms of evolution such as electrical beings or acoustical beings, or anything else that makes geologists or archaeologists scratch their heads and say “that’s odd – this weird pattern in the rock strata or preserved residue of some kind, seems to change over geological timescales and grow more complex during such-and-such period.” We see no signs of evolving and unexplained organization. So if we’re sharing this planet with some kind of parallel-evolving entity of some kind, there are no signs of it. In other words, the geological record stands as evidence that such a thing does not exist.

    That really only leaves us with one last unexplored possibility: that some humans figured out a means of spaceflight before we did, and left the planet for some reason, and now they’re coming back to check up on us from time to time.

    Technically, that falls under the extraterrestrial hypothesis because they’re now visiting us from a region beyond the Earth, even though they originated here.

    This hypothesis is actually impossible to rule out entirely at this point, because there could be a number of reasons why we might not have discovered evidence of their pre-exodus society yet – perhaps they hid it so well that we haven’t found it and may never find it, akin to Gobekli Tepe. Or perhaps some geological disaster sent their city to the bottom of the ocean eons ago, and nature did the rest to wash it away.

    It seems very unlikely though. It took the massive industrial base that we had available in the 1960s to put astronauts on the Moon, and obviously there’s nothing like that in the archeological record. But the Egyptians built the pyramids without anything even remotely resembling the sophistication of our modern industrial infrastructure, so we can’t be 100% sure that there isn’t some way to escape the Earth’s gravity using some clever technique that has somehow evaded modern scientific understanding. And I’ve heard stories about ancient texts from India that are said to describe strange flying vehicles. Maybe one day we’ll discover some lift principle that could be exploited with fairly primitive technology, and ferry some humans out of the Earth’s gravity well. It seems extremely implausible, but I wouldn’t have believed that the ancient Greeks had built a form of analogue computer, if we hadn’t discovered the Antikythera mechanism. So I try to keep an open mind.

    Alternatively, maybe some of our ancestors made friends with some visiting extraterrestrials, and went off to explore the universe for awhile, and now they’re coming back to see how we’re doing.

    But there again, we’re back to a variant of the ETH.

    This was all much longer than I would’ve liked, but I wanted to be thorough, because it’s notoriously difficult to kill a bad idea once it gets going. Sorta like gangrene. Notice how people are still talking about Ronald Reagan’s absurd “trickle-down economics” idea 40 years later, even though it’s a well-proven hoax because economics does not now, nor has it ever, actually worked that way.

    This thread stands as a challenge to the humanoidlord’s and the Gene Steinberg’s of the world, who are now set upon to offer some variant of this “extradimensional ultraterrestrial trickster” idea that does not grossly contradict all logic and reason and the wealth of empirical data at our disposal.

    Shows us a way that this idea can actually work, without contradicting what we know to be fact.

    Or admit that you have no idea how your own theory works, and then stfu about it until you do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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  2. Ron67

    Ron67 Ignorance isn’t bliss!

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    All very well Thomas but you are just using facts and evidence to prove things!.What about magic and woo!.Harry Potter is a documentary don’t you know.:laugh8:
     
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  3. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    Aw crap - you're totally right - I forgot to consult Dumbledore and Gandalf before dismissing the cosmic trickster hypothesis as fairy-tale BS. Anyone have their email addresses? =D
     
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  4. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Very well said, I was going to comment on some particulars of your writing, I will probably still do so in more detail, but I wanted to say not only does this cosmic trickster fiasco sound absurd , it is completely irrational to even consider something like that existing and conjuring up UFOs as a planet-wide fools joke on us humans...
    ae4;

    Many years ago I was in the company of a mystic, a very knowledgeable man, one night we were outside in the clear night, billions of stars could been seen as there was no ground light pollution at all, we were in a very remote part of South America...Our small talk turned very briefly to UFOs and he told me he was so sure that in our galaxy there were a few types of 'people' so advanced mentally they could mentally project a probe/UFO and control it remotely for as long as was needed to gather information about the planet and people on it, the information once sent back to their minds they 'dissolved' their mentally projected probes...

    ...
     
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  5. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    That's interesting - I've done my fair share of reading Ingo Swann and Robert Monroe, and listening to lots of Art Bell's interviews about astral travel, and reading up on the techniques of Eastern mysticism. It would seem that Eastern mystics mapped the acupuncture points and meridians by moving their consciousness (what Carlos Castaneda would call "the assemblage point") throughout their bodies - and frankly I was kind of stunned when I read about modern technological confirmation of their findings. So it seems like it might be possible to move one's consciousness outside of the body as well, and several of the remote viewers like Pat Price and Russell Targ make a compelling case for something along those lines.

    However, nowhere have I encountered the idea that this form of "consciousness projection" involves a visually discernible manifestation, nor do I see why it would. Perhaps there's some technologically enhanced method of sending "energy probes" of some kind across spacetime, though it seems unlikely that such a thing could move faster than the speed of light, since energy propagates at that speed. But I can't believe that the mind could create a physical object of some kind, or even a blob of plasma in the sky. without technological assistance and an input of energy.

    In Autobiography of a Yogi, Paramahansa Yogananda describes a process where an enlightened avatar can create temporary manifestations of small objects in their hand, which soon disintegrate into a fine dust or smoke. But the way he describes the process, it seems like they're somehow pulling fine particles out of the air with their fingers, and packing them together like a sculpting process.

    I suppose we can't foresee what kinds of capabilities a being 1+ billion years ahead of us evolutionary, might be capable of, but it's difficult to conceive of any method of projecting a surveillance device of some kind into the skies of a world many light-years away via the power of thought, without running up against some fundamental violations of physical law.

    Nor do I see the need to do such a thing: with a sufficiently advanced gravitational field propulsion mechanism, it would be possible to send a physical probe across the galaxy and back much faster than the speed of light, and without any time dilation effects. That is theoretically possible, so that seems like the most likely explanation to me.

    Hopefully we'll figure out that kind of system soon, so we can get out there and discover just what is possible for civilizations billions of years ahead of us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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  6. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Honorable

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    yeah, there was a guy on another forum, who was actively looking for people to convert into his version of christianity. To be honest there were two, one lowbraw and another highbrow. My jaw dropped, because the highbraw one was so un-imaginative and blatant in offering comfort to people disturbed by abduction. And he was so argumentative, which is admittedly no sin on UFO forums, but he would argue without ever pulling out a fact.

    Even the most impressive fact based researcher, Linda Milton Howe, switched from fact based ufology, to multidimensional wars betwee reptilian and Scandinavian aliens fighting for a future of planet Earth. Somehow I have a feeling that she had a chat with MiBs and thay mede few suggestions.

    That's not really hard to do. Just borrow F-22 pilot's helmet, connect yourself and the helmet to a 3D printer and you'll have mind manifesting material objects.

    I would say that all that misticizm is just a hit & miss mumbo jumbo. They are particularly inclined to go all over the place, so there is a high chance that they will wagely hit on something real. Try asking them to produce something real and at that, before the fact. Hindsight is 20/20.

    Important thing to add here is that they obtain the perfect match by simply curve fitting. They've got results from other theories and whenever they get stuck they just hop on an extra dimension and than they are OK again. They are lucky they got away so far with just 11 dims.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  7. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    this thread is a obvious veiled attack angaist me
     
  8. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    remote viewing is a pseudoscience, there have never been 100% hits using it, there will always be something weird, one example i have seen many people use angaist me is the ingo swan jupiter rings controversy, these people seems to forget that in the same reading, swan claimed he saw giant mountains of crystal in jupiter :Whistle:
     
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  9. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    You mock this but believe in some silly trickster god?...:Whistle:

    ...
     
  10. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    that was debunked by NASA missions, what i believe however is still in the table
     
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  11. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Personal belief in some thing can be a comforting thing when trying to reconcile the unknown no matter how bizarre that belief may be, its basically how religions were formed as well as most other belief systems whether personal in nature or in mass...

    ...
     
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  12. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Oh so the Trickster God thing? That's your position on deities? I'm a subtext person, I always look for cyphered meaning, I thought you were making a Jab or metacomment at a belief in God, By calling it a Trick or illusion.

    That's what I get for assuming things though. :wub8:
     
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  13. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    i wouldn't call it a god myself, a god is a being wich creates a dimension, the cosmic trickster is ... something else
     
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  14. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    What do you mean by using the word 'dimension' in this sentence?...That word can be a tricky one to use, I wanted to be clearer on what you mean by your usage...

    ...
     
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  15. ImmortalLegend527

    ImmortalLegend527 The Messenger Of All Gods old and new

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    I have..absolutely no idea... what in your petty gods' life, I just read..so what do you believe?

    I remember the first time when I found out what a dejevue really meant, in which was very incredible.

    I remember when I found out, that stars are used on humans just like pixels are used to a tv..what ever that meant?

    I remember when I was taught how to program and reprogram and send viruses into programs amongst the populace.

    I remember the first time I answered a telephone before it rang.

    I remember the first spell that was ever taught to me.

    I remember the first time I was able to realm instead of astral.

    I remember the first time I saw a gray..lucky for me I was born full-blown insomnia so their little thing didn't work.

    I remember jumping into an office in the 80s stating that the grays are not considered aliens because they are from this earth and so it was written.So I never ever since that day ever considered them aliens they are aquatic humans.

    I remember the day in which I saw 3 lights moving down the street and while they were moving down the street in the middle of the triangle was nothing but millions if not billions of stars..on a rainy cloudy day.

    I remember after seeing those three things a week later I woke up and saw binary codes in red by the hundreds, o my hand the room the world.

    I realm jumped to the other side of the ice and after that, all bets were off, as far as never believe in anything that's beyond the imagination.

    I never ever believed in aliens and portals and such, in fact, I always said if time travel and portals and stuff like existed, it would start with those three entities, that you mortals call the 'flying triangle'.

    In history, humans around the world have given this 3 things plenty of names. The eye of the province, the eye of God, the 3 atoms, the flying triangle, the orbs, the flying saucers, gods eye, the Extradimensional Ultraterrestrial aliens.
     
  16. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    a reality, a universe
     
  17. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    No that wouldn't work. Unless you used a head-up instrumentation helmet to operate a 3D modeling program. But in any case that's not what we were talking about - the idea we were debating involves projecting some kind of visible object into a distant planet's atmosphere using the power of the mind, and I see a number of big problems with that idea, even if there were some kind of technological assistance.

    Honestly it doesn't sound like you've looked into any of it. For starters, Eastern mysticism usually involves tried and tested techniques for modifying the practitioner's state of consciousness, and those techniques do work.

    As for out-of-body experiences and remote viewing and such, I've seen and experienced too much to write them off just because they're not 100% reliable like technology tends to be. Not all thunderstorms produce ball lightning - but that doesn't mean that ball lightening doesn't exist. There are many real phenomena that are rare, and sporadic.

    No, this this thread is a totally unveiled attack against the wildly superstitious and counterfactual "extradimensional ultraterrestrial" mumbo jumbo that many people such as yourself and Gene Steinberg advocate all day long, nearly every day. And since you attack the vastly more rational and scientifically credible ETH in every thread where it comes up, I don't feel the slightest bit bad about taking it on directly, here in a dedicated thread.

    I prefer to regard it as "protoscience" not "pseudoscience," because there's definitely a phenomenon there. Its physical nature and theory of operation remain unexplained, that's all. Only about 5% of UFO reports involve truly anomalous phenomena, so your 100% standard is unreasonable and arbitrary.

    Another example is rogue waves - less than 1% of sailors have ever seen a rogue wave, and for ages they were denied as myth for that reason. Only in recent years, thanks to greater scientific understanding and the acquisition of new data, has the table turned, and now it's widely regarded as a real phenomenon. The same will happen with regard to many unexplained psychic phenomena over the next few centuries.

    No you're getting your facts all mixed up. He described clouds of crystals in the atmosphere. NASA now believes that there are ammonia-ice crystals in Jupiter's atmosphere:
    Space Images | Dark and Stormy Jupiter

    We have no radar imaging data on the surface of Jupiter beneath the clouds, but given the metallic hydrogen composition of the surface and the high winds, it's possible that there are metallic hydrogen mountains as he described.

    A full transcript of Ingo Swann's remote viewing session on Jupiter and his account can be found here, along with a collection of pertinent scientific statements quoted from the science press:

    The Ingo Swann 1973 Remote Viewing probe of the planet Jupiter

    This is why it's so funny to see you taking a pseudoskeptical position with regard to remote viewing: you're advocating for the idea of an invisible and virtually omnipotent "cosmic trickster" that can manifest solid objects via the power of thought, which can reflect radar and appear to be alien craft deftly evading our top jet interceptors. And then you call remote viewing - a program with a long history of startling intelligence-gathering accomplishments that won US gov't funding for 23 years, "pseudoscience." Hilarious.

    First of all, the only "god" I ascribe to is defined as "the universe as a whole." Calling the universe itself "petty" is absurd.

    And I endeavor to "believe" nothing. Frank Herbert wrote in Dune "fear is the mind-killer," but I disagree - belief is the mind-killer.

    There are only two categories of knowledge: the known, and the unknown. "Belief" is when a person like humanoidlord here decides to take an unknown - for example the origin of the widely reported anomalous devices reported in our airspace, and then pretend that he has the solution without any credible facts to back him up. That pretense of knowledge which somebody doesn't actually have, is "belief." Belief is ignorance masquerading as knowledge. Western religions are based almost entirely upon this self-deceiving thought process.

    I try to steer clear of it entirely. And when I find an a belief lurking in the fringes of my thought processes, I immediately pin it down and mercilessly gut it like a fish, before it can do any more damage to the validity of my reasoning processes.
     
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  18. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    no,no and no, i have never seen a example of any of that that can't be explained by dreaming (OOBE's) or witness imagination (RV's)
    you still haven't explained to me the high strangeness in UFO reports, handwaving it with "sufficiently advanced techonology" doesn't works in me
    also take a look at the cases in this website: Out of This World | Cryptopia - Exploring The Hidden World
    these cases can't be explained with the dead horse ETH
    show me a 100% hit, then, otherwise its new age bullshit
    rogue waves are a unexplained but mundane phenomena, PSY powers are a fantastical phenomena not a mundane one, so its worthless comparing the 2
    nope, i remenber reading it, he said mountains
    the truth is stranger than fiction
     
  19. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Inquisitor

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    So: no – you’ve never studied parapsychology; no – you’ve never studied Eastern mysticism; and no – you have no idea that those techniques actually work.

    I assumed as much.

    OBE’s and RV are only two examples among a vast spectrum of parapsychological pheneomena.

    The Patty Hearst kidnapping case is a particularly striking example – Pat Price picked out the lead kidnapper from a book of mug shots, and he also provided the police with the current location of the getaway car:
    Remote Viewing book chapter

    And Dr. Barry Taff has conducted hundreds of scientific investigations into paranormal phenomena; his findings are amazing. In one case the phone rang and when the family answered, they could hear their daughter on the line, except she sounded much younger, like she sounded when she as a little girl. So they went to check on her, and found that she was having an epileptic seizure in her bedroom. After she was medicated for her epilepsy, the poltergeist-like activity in their home stopped. Dr. Taff discovered that this was a recurring pattern among the cases he investigated, and in other cases they witnessed telekinetic activity as well. In one case, one of his team members was almost killed during such an event.

    It’s easy to write this kind of thing off if you haven’t seen it for yourself, but too many credible people have reported events like this to deny that they do sometimes happen, imo.

    Exactly as I anticipated, the cases at your link describe UFOs and alien creatures, such as this case:
    STUMPS: (OREGON, USA) | Cryptopia - Exploring The Hidden World

    And here’s another case where a witness reported seeing an alien creature inside of a pod-like capsule (reminiscent of the Flatwoods Monster case):
    BOSAK HUMANOID: (WISCONSIN, USA) | Cryptopia - Exploring The Hidden World

    So once again, we find that the facile argument of “it’s too strange for the ETH to explain!”…actually cites examples that sound exactly like ETH cases. But unlike you, I don’t assume that any specific case is a real case unless it’s backed up by multiple witnesses and/or radar data, and/or anomalous trace evidence. Because people make up stories all the time, for all kinds of reasons. Without empirical confirmation of some kind, there’s no way to sift the wheat from the chaff – which apparently you’re totally unwilling to do. I wonder, if I posted a fake report on that website about my socks turning into glowing purple octupi that telepathically informed me that my parents were elves, before sliding down my bathtub drain, you'd accept it as fact without question, and cite it as an example of an incident that the ETH can't explain. With your total lack of data controls, I have to assume that you would.

    I already did. But the fact that you’re absolutely convinced that some invisible supernatural being is creating UFOs through magic…and yet you have the gall to call anything else bullshit…is totally hilarious. And total hypocrisy, btw.

    Everything is a mundane phenomenon once it’s understood. That's the point.

    Mountains can be made of anything; there are mountains of ice in Antarctica for example. You just assumed that he meant “mountains of rock,” which he never specified (nor intended, imo).

    In any case, we have no information about the surface of Jupiter below the clouds, so you can’t claim that they’re not there. I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn, one day, that the surface of Jupiter has mountain ranges of metallic hydrogen, or some other kind of matter. The fact that you're willing to assert with no evidence whatsoever, that you know what the surface of Jupiter looks like, betrays a deep-seated intellectual dishonesty.

    You’re missing the total irony of your own position: you’re claiming that an unseen supernatural entity with paranormal abilities is manifesting all of the wide variety of anomalous UFO sightings.

    Your own hypothesis requires paranormal phenomena to be real. That’s what I find to be so funny: your logic is intrinsically self-contradictory, and you don't even see it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  20. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    and where does that assumption come from? i have studied every one of those and still study them every now and then
    i am just giving examples based on the 2 most common alleged psy powers
    psychic detectives go over thousands of cases every year, every now and then someone gets it right, she may have seen subtle indications of being guilty on his face....
    poltergeists have nothing to do with psy powers and are a real and confirmable manifestation of the cosmic trickster
    again you are obviously describing polteirgeist activity, not psy activity....
    i have seen minor ghost activity before but nothing big
     

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