The Extradimensional Ultraterrestrial Hypothesis: Superstition Masquerading as Science

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by Thomas R. Morrison, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    no, thanks, real ufologists don't need external help
     
  2. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Regent of Taraka

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    So this is pretty funny - I started listening to an old Art Bell interview with John Keel today (and "John Keel worship" is why humanoidlord hates the ETH so much and favor's Keel's "extradimensional ultraterrestrial" idea instead).

    And Keel said that the reason he rejected the ETH is because UFO sightings are so common, and have gone back in history for so long.

    The problem is, that given what we now know about the prevalence of habitable worlds and their ancient ages, we should be expecting a lot of UFO sightings going back all the way to the dawn of human history.

    So Keel's logic was all effed up: the ETH actually predicts the observed data.

    I'm sure that'll fly right over humanoidlord's head though, because once somebody embraces an idea with religious fervor, logic and reason go right out the window.
     
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  3. Double Nought Spy

    Double Nought Spy Easily Amused

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    I'm pretty sure Keel would be very annoyed by a lot of what is attributed to him these days. I've read a lot of his work, including much of the unpublished stuff on that awesome blog run by his friend Doug, and I often wonder where some of this stuff comes from. To a lesser extent (as far as I can tell), I think the same is true of Jacques Vallee. He has said he'd be disappointed if the UFO phenomenon was not caused by something a lot more interesting than nuts and bolts craft piloted by people from other planets. The things people manage to dream up out of that can be astonishing. I'm sure he is very annoyed by some of it.
     
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  4. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    The things people manage to dream up - or allow themselves to be deluded by - can be astonishing, period.
     
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  5. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    yeah there are trillions of earth-like planets in the milk way, yet somehow they only visit earth, what a wonderfull coincidence
     
  6. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    well you can look it up, everthing i have ever said is part of their works
     
  7. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    How do you know they only visit earth?...Have you been on other planets to observe the lack of visitations first hand or did an alien visitor relay this information to you?...A claim like that, "they only visit earth", is really meaningless and can never be proven for or against...

    ...
     
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  8. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    the number of times they visit this planet is ridiculous
     
  9. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    For all we know our planet could actually be the least visited...

    ...
     
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  10. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

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    but its still bizarre, and makes little sense
     
  11. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Granted that on the bizarre part, some incidents are reportedly bizarre and perhaps make little sense sometimes, I guess though, in the mind of that visitor its crystal clear lol...

    ...
     
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  12. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Regent of Taraka

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    Actually when I first joined up here, you were trying to get me to read Keel's books, and then you were forced to admit that you hadn't read them yourself - you were simply adhering to what you had heard about his works.

    And if everything you've ever said was taken from Vallee and Keel, then you have no capacity for independent thought. That's just sad. Nobody should ever sacrifice their own original thought process to some perceived "authority figure."

    Many billions of potentially life-supporting worlds in this galaxy alone, which are on average 2-3 billion years older than the Earth. Your subjective assessment of "ridiculous" is totally meaningless in this context. The ETH predicts that we'd be visited frequently and from times long before mankind even began keeping records. That's what appears to be happening.

    It only makes "little sense" to you, apparently because your mind can't grasp words like "billions." That's understandable - big numbers like that are hard to grasp. But taking the next step and saying that it's ridiculous simply because you can't grasp it - that's where your ego defeats the logic of the situation: it is comprehensible - it's just not comprehensible to you.
     
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  13. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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  14. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    The problem isn't that alien races might or might not be visiting - it's the number of times somebody thinks it's happening, or is lying, or faking, or is just nuts. All of which is far too many by anybody's reckoning.
     
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  15. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    NIDS and JB Alexander came out with the Precognitive Sentient Phenomenon notion about their experiences at Skinwalker - a lot of that to explain the inability of traditional observation and empirical science to make itself useful.
    So when the NIDS crowd says something like that where's the hue and cry? Sounds a lot like Loki to me only couched in JBA-speke.

    Bigfoot is now some trans-dimensional entity, even minus Stephanie Powers, to explain away his elusiveness. But mention that UFOs might not be what they appear to be, well that's just nuts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  16. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Regent of Taraka

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    Well humanoidlord references any and all claims of alien contact, lunches with aliens, spider crab aliens skittering across the road, etc., as fact - he apparently believes every single crazy alien story on the internet without the slightest skepticism. And what's worse - he credulously holds the most crazy stories up as evidence to support his Loki god notion. It seems to be incomprehensible to him that a lot of people love to make up crazy stories either to see how many idiots will actually believe them, or for a few minutes of undeserved attention. Some people are tricksters. No "extradimensional" omnipotent divine being with a perverse sense of humor required.

    That's a counterfactual statement. Nobody can reasonably "reckon" how many visitations are "far too many" in a situation where we potentially have billions of neighboring civilizations that may have a capacity to travel here with the ease that you and I get take-out for lunch, and any number of them may have active on-going surveillance operations or other agendas here on our planet.

    But I think that when you cull the data with some semblance of responsible skepticism and the various filters of misidentifications and military planes and so forth, then the number of actual AAV sightings is probably fairly small - because we know that 80-95+% of all "unidentified" flying object sightings are actually mundane things; the AAV portion that seems to represent nonhuman technology is probably less than 5% (possibly even less than 1%) of the total "UFO" data set.

    That's a twisted argument: first you malign the people who assign hocus-pocus explanations to the Skinwalker Ranch incidents or stories or whathaveyou, as well as Bigfoot (and I agree with this part - abandoning scientific reasoning is always a bad idea - and I raise objections whenever anybody raises this specter of superstition), but then you turn around and argue in favor of the idea that UFOs could be "something else" masquerading as solid aerial devices with surprisingly consistent performance characteristics.

    Make up your mind. If you think it's silly and reckless to make up hand-wavy factless non-scientific explanations like "Precognitive Sentient Phenomenon" (which reads like meaningless word salad) for Skinwalker Ranch and Bigfoot, then it's silly and reckless to do the same thing with AAV reports.

    Physical events have physical causes. And I see zero reason to think that if you see a large metallic disc hovering over the treeline and then dart out of view in the blink of an eye, that you saw something other than a large metallic disc hovering over the treeline that then darted out of view in the blink of an eye. Questioning our own unambivalent sensory perceptions is the road to madness (and absolutely awful explanatory hypotheses).
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  17. 1963

    1963 Honorable

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    :tumbsup:
    Bravo Thomas..... Excellent thread and as often is the case, I can find nothing to disagree with whatsoever. In fact , if I were half as knowledgeable and articulate as you undoubtedly are my friend... I would have created a thread very similar to this one myself. :tumbsup:

    Cheers Buddy.
     
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  18. 1963

    1963 Honorable

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    :lol3: ... HL, you crack me up mate!... just a 'tad' egomaniacal ...no? :wink3:
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  19. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Oh please. What I am saying is that there have been decades of total horseshit regarding UFO sightings and we still have video of people oooo-ing and ahhhh-ing at video and pictures that have obvious explanations. And over time the descriptions of what's being seen has changed. UFOlogy is largely grist for the mill for sociologists. How you can possibly winkle out that small fraction and determine that 'nope - it was in the cesspool with all the other shit but this one's clean!!' is an interesting thing to ponder.

    You are proceeding from the assumption that we have been visited. I think it's possible, maybe even likely but to date there is zero proof, and pointing to the secret hidey-hole that the military keeps the 'good stuff' in isn't proof it's more conjecture. Massive amounts of sightings and reports isn't proof of anything other than that people make reports.

    I think @humanoidlord is just pulling your leg to get a rise out of you (and apparently succeeding) but I also think that at some level he has a point; we ought to at least keep our minds open to to other possibilities. Nothing wrong with putting forth a theory and investing time in it, but consider that the actual 'answer' could have more to it than you may have anticipated.

    By the way, Robert Bigelow has a similar interest and has invested far more money than you or I ever will into researching all sorts of things and look at all the progress that's been made in that regard. And they did have UFO sightings - brilliant orbs, flying refrigerators, etc at the Ranch to contend with. And the answer was .... Precognitive Sentient Phenomenon anyone?

    What I found interesting is that no one has made any comparison of what John Alexander and Colm Kelleher had to say about their Skinwalker findings and the Ultradimensional Hypothesis or whatever it's called. Sounds like the same thing to me. Somehow when they say something couched in ten dollar words they get a pass, yet when someone else uses ten cent words to articulate pretty much the same thing well then, they are clearly misguided nitwits. Didn't Jacques Vallee say something like 'if it were just aliens visiting in spacecraft he'd be disappointed?' ETH sounds like a narrowly anthropomorphic view. I think it's probably the most likely but also can't help but think that we are necessarily looking at this through our own lens and are missing something.

    Incidentally - if I want to 'malign' something I am perfectly capable. Mostly I am just bored and looking to stir the pot, not get into a online pissing contest.

    I honestly don't know what to make of NIDS and Skinwalker. I don't think much of 'handy wavy word salad' as applied to cryptids and the like, and if it weren't for the apparent credibility of those involved at Skinwalker wouldn't think much of it. But I also don't think much of weaving together a theory by parsing data largely taken from eyewitness reports and then deciding that Eureka! The Answer is Here.
     
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  20. Double Nought Spy

    Double Nought Spy Easily Amused

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    Some excellent points there, pf. The UFO field and the larger, more general area of "paranormal" events often remind me of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. Everyone seems to have a favorite hobby horse, but in order to remain faithful to it, one must ignore huge portions of the available data. It all just doesn't add up, and it never has. I think that fact should be leading us to learn to ask the right questions, but mostly we just defend our chosen turf. I like the idea that there is really no contradiction in aliens coming here from elsewhere, by various means including interdimensional travel. Really, if there is a civilization on a planet a thousand light years from here, and representatives of it manage to get here somehow, does it really matter if we call their method FTL or interdimensional? Isn't their planet essentially in a different dimension? I know that will raise some hackles, especially from people who love math mainly because there is only ever one right answer. It might even make the Star Trek universe unravel, Loki forbid!

    To me, people like Vallee are the ones dealing with the whole topic, and not just the kinds of carefully curated data sets most people seem to be comfortable with. He and Hynek joined the Rosicrucians in the 60s. They explored psychic phenomena. They were, I believe, the first prominent UFO researchers to publicly articulate the idea that UFOs might originate in alternate dimensions. Nuts and bolts fundamentalists drive him up a wall, but he is also very interested in current efforts to analyze materials possibly from other worlds. He doesn't ignore data, let alone deny the validity (or even the existence) of whole classes of experience.
     
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