The Extradimensional Ultraterrestrial Hypothesis: Superstition Masquerading as Science

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by Thomas R. Morrison, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    agree 100%
    free will would make cases where the UFOnauts tell the witnesses accurate predictions of the future, impossible
     
  2. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    maybe you should follow me more closely
    if you read "mothman prophecies" and some of the actual journals that keel made in that period (found in: JOHN KEEL)
    you will see that the insanity he experienced in point pleasant and mount misery in long island can't be explained with "conjuntion fallacy"
     
  3. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    and were did i say we are being visited by an entire civilization from another universe?
    i already said its only one entity behind all this
     
  4. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    those rebuttals you gave sadly are an example of handwaving, but i ain't going to sound like a broken record here
    its nice that you started reading keel, believe me when i say his books get a lot more interesting the more you read them
     
  5. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

    Messages:
    12,456
    Have you read me making fun of any interdimensional theories?...No, not at all, I have only pointed out your religious belief in Loki which you have clearly said many times on this forum that your god creates all ufo and paranormal phenomena to trick us for his own amusement, Loki is alleged to be the God of mischief and your cosmic trickster is a God of mischief by all your accounts and descriptions...Same same...Please stop muddying the pool with bullshit and enuendos...You twist and back track your words so much that it hurts to even try to rationalize your posts...

    ...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

    Messages:
    12,456
    Yes Loki, which is not at all the interdimensional theories I have read, it's just your barbaric belief in this God that is muddying these waters and making a joke of both this thread and ufology...

    ...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Awesome Awesome x 1
  7. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    this isn't a religion, a religion needs worship and i see no reason to worship a being that has caused the death of a dozen of individuals and destroyed the lifes of a thousand more
     
  8. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    uh, what?
    my conclusion is the same one that jacques vallee and keel reached, what are those other interdimensional theories you are mentioning?
     
  9. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Adept

    Messages:
    46
    I'm sure your list of articles is very interesting, but when I clicked on the link I ended up "Page cannot be found."
     
  10. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    paracast being the paracast
    :Whistle:
     
  11. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Honorable

    Messages:
    343
    I've just checked and link worked for me. Please refresh your browser or delete cookies and try again. I would quite like to hear your opinion.

    List of Technical Papers Related to UFOs and Electro Magnetism

    There is a paper there called: The Age Distribution of Potential Intelligent Life in the Milky Way that I would like you to read. It is about galactic habitable zones. I am sure you've heard about habitable zones around stars, this paper is about habitable zones on galactic scale. Paper gives some fascinating estimates for intelligent life in Milky Way based on well accepted astronomical data. Suffice to say, many of these estimates shed huge amount of light on psychology of aliens. There is lots of understandable content if one simply ignores jargon heavy parts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Adept

    Messages:
    46
    Well, a very impressive collection! Most are new to me, as I left the UFO field around 1972 and lost touch with developments for a decade or more. The message appears to be that there is convincing evidence that some UFOs are propelled by various anti gravitational drives that have side effects upon witnesses and their vehicles. (The "Age Distribution" paper I didn't spot.) OK, but there is always the alternative hypothesis that many of these sightings actually result from sightings of black project craft. If I recall the first big vehicle stopping case, Levelland, occurred quite near White Sands, and one witness saw a normal looking person near one of the objects (if there were actually more than one). Worth checking out Nick Cook's book, The Hunt for Zero Point, which researches the various strands of field propulsion research. Also worth noting that the Nazis were actively researching means to disrupt vehicle operation as a possible anti-aircraft weapon.
    However, I am very impressed by the number and quality of technical papers now available. (I was not much impressed by the famous Douglas project from what I have seen of the reports published to date.)
    Also worth noting that spinning compass needles were a feature of spots on the Hills' car following their encounter (I am actually of the opinion that the whole Hill case was an exercise in mind control); also of some cases in the Bermuda Triangle, notably the Gernon case.
    I reiterate that I have never rejected the ETH, but I still think it a mistake to focus exclusively on that one theory when other hypotheses have not been ruled out. (I notice that one of the articles is by someone who actually prefers the alternative dimension concept to a simple extraterrestrial explanation!)
    Thank you for locating all these interesting publications. One (NICAP's UFO Evidence) has been on my search list for years!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Honorable

    Messages:
    343
    Here is that paper about intelligent life in Milky Way:

    The Age Distribution of Potential Intelligent Life in the Milky Way

    It's much closer than to instant gratification, than other papers.

    Yeah, the whole library was designed to attract people who are scientifically minded specialists and show them that UFO research is not all about unbridled hear-say and ridicule.

    Goal is much more humble than that. It is to stop people studying UFOs on a case by case basis, but with Big Data analysis, like astrophysicist Dr. Mark Rodeghier. Big Data statistical approach simply works because Google and Facebook use it to make billions of dollars :). For example a single individual consumer (here: UFO case) might be unpredictable, but when processed by Big Data approach consumers on a whole (here: whole UFOs phenomenon) become up to 93% predictable. I guess most psychologists use it as well, because averaging out filters out hoaxes and delusions.

    UFOs might not be well understood as phenomena, but UFOs leave a whole spectrum of effects on environment that are very familiar and well understood by many branches of science. Only problem is that these physical effects are little known and would only appeal to specialist knowledge in the respective field, but not so much general public. And talking science/engineering to general public can be a pain-in-the-...

    For example, majority of UFO effects are electro-magnetic, electrical engineers would understand these effects very well. And than these EM effects are one-to-one inter-connected with chemical, physiological and probably psychological (my weak side) effects.

    As for "anti gravitational drive", sure, but that term is taboo that would put off serious people. We can simply say "range of inter-connected physical effects" with a emphasis on "inter-connected" because one effect causes another in explainable way etc. @Thomas R. Morrison has some very good understanding how drives might work, strictly based on general relativity and electro-magnetism, and his model almost perfectly matches the physical UFO effects I collected in the library.

    It is that "inter-connectedness" of the physical UFO effects that rises credibility of witness stories, because there is never a single UFO story where all physical effects appear at once, but they come from many different stories strewn across the human history and whole globe.

    Absolutely tough luck with black projects. No chance. People jump into "black project" idea just because they don't understand physics well enough. UFOs completely break known physics. @Thomas R. Morrison and myself had spent years digging through physics papers. Modern physics offers only the vaguest of hints of how UFOs might work. Even with fingers crossed, knowledge required would need to be 200-300 years ahead of our current science. But many people can't care less and keep throwing around words they picked from comic books and science fiction, like: multi dimensional, parallel universes, time travel etc.

    That's well known and US Army did that as well. Military version is done with quick Electro-Magnetic Pulse and is designed more to destroy the ignition and vehicle can't be restarted. But seemingly spontaneous mechanism that happens around UFOs is well explained in some of papers at the link and it is very different.

    UFOs are surrounded with strong electrostatic field that causes air ionization, a bit like power lines or lightning, and air ionization makes air conductive so sparks from ignition loose their way and start jumping onto metal parts inside engine bay. That causes engine to misfire and so on. When UFO leaves, air stops being conductive and engine restarts because sparks from ignition stop wasting energy by jumping around engine bay and go straight back into piston cylinder, as they should.

    The way UFOs unintentionally do it is seamlessly inter-connected :) with other physical effects that UFOs cause. There is A causes B, B causes C etc. physical chain starting from the moment UFOs enter higher atmosphere and follows all the way down to the ground where witness sees UFO.

    And in Koyne Mansfield Ohio helicopter case compass spun for few days, which is physically impossible. Friction should had stopped it within an hour.

    I agree. I listened some Vallee's interview, started checking his parallel universe stuff out and found whole this Complex 8D Spaces mathematics that perfectly unites General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. And that is not a small feat. 8D is not really 8D but it is 2x4D, because we just keep 4 dimensions, only each of these new dimensions is kind of worth 2 ordinary dimensions. It's called complex numbers and they are used a lot in physics. And if this works out than "oneness" of spacetime or non-locality (as physicist would call it) becomes reality. And ESP, telepathy etc. become possible. Saying that, it's early stages and there is no experimental confirmation.

    Importantly, "oneness" (aka non-locality, entanglement etc.) is not a joke, it is a fundamental principle without which Quantum Mechanics would fall apart and it has been confirmed by experiments. And non-locality requires traveling back in time. Whole Standard Model of Physics is based on traveling back in time :), but physicists make somersaults when explaining it to general public, so to keep it hush-hush :) and hide it deep inside jargon to avoid controversy.

    There is an excrept from a book that trys to connect consioussnes with these complex 8D spaces: Aspects of Consciousness: Essays on Physics, Death and the Mind, but one should not take it as a gospel, only as interesting read.

    There is a nice podcast on these non-local spacetimes: The Octonions
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  14. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Regent of Taraka

    Messages:
    705
    I agree completely – Déjan has done an excellent job tracking down the best scientific works on this subject, and we all owe him a debt of gratitude for sharing them with us.

    I don’t know anyone who rules out that explanation for some – if not many - of the reports. Some of our top military jets are generally triangular in shape, for example - surely many people mistake these for something more exotic than what they are.

    But it’s the truly anomalous sightings that are of the greatest interest, so people tend to focus on those. The AATIP did the same thing, and they concluded that there’s a very distinct category of sightings which they call AAVs (anomalous aerial vehicles) which don’t belong to the inventory of any military on this planet. And they found that this category consistently exhibits five signature observable characteristics, most of which conform perfectly to our academic theoretical predictions for the flight characteristics of a gravitational field propulsion device, which just so happens to be the only known theoretically sound principle that permits superluminal spaceflight, making it the ideal method for interstellar travel. That can’t be a coincidence: it’s like seeing the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle falling together to create a clear and simple explanation for what we’re seeing.

    UFOs/AAVs have always been reported around major military research installations, and White Sands has been a key example since the 1940s, which instigated theodolite and cinetheodolite studies such as Project Greenglow and Project Twinkle.

    It might be tempting to interpret this correlation as an indication that these craft are military in origin, but the military certainly didn’t see it that way, or else they wouldn’t have initiated such studies. It appears that these anomalous devices take an interest in any site where we’re developing and/or deploying our most advanced military technologies.

    First, I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the ETH explains all anomalous sightings. But given the wealth of independent scientific knowledge across multiple pertinent disciplines today, I don’t see any room for doubt that the ETH explains a great many genuinely anomalous reports.

    Second, the scientific method doesn’t work by ruling out competing hypotheses (i.e., proving a negative). It works by finding the most plausible hypothesis based on the preponderance of data and logical deduction, and then developing that hypothesis and testing it against additional data. When one applies that protocol to the ETH, it doesn’t just hold up; it actually gets much stronger, because all of the additional data that’s been coming in over the last few decades has lent additional support for it.

    It’s up to the competing hypoetheses to present a superior explanation of the data, with the fewest additional postulates. The IDH fails to do that, and fairly spectacularly, because it requires a number of additional postulates which are totally unsupported by any evidence, such as:

    - the existence of other universes
    - the existence of other intelligent life forms there
    - a theoretical model for transit between universes
    - the technological capability to travel between universes
    - the possibility of a technology which can exist in both universes, perhaps even ones with different laws of physics

    That’s a hell of a lot to take on faith. The ETH doesn’t ask us to make any such leaps.

    Until very recently we had no idea that the average age of a habitable planet in our galaxy (and elsewhere) would be around 3 billion years older than our Earth. In fact we really didn’t even know if there were any other Earth-like worlds orbiting Sun-like stars elsewhere in the universe, until pretty recently. And we only saw the first viable theoretical proposal for a propulsion principle that could readily span those distances 25 years ago. So it's understandable that prior to these developments, some might have had reservations about the viability of the ETH.

    Now that we know how common habitable worlds are (billions in our galaxy alone), and the average age of them (billions of years older than Earth, on average), the logical considerations have shifted dramatically. If another nearby Earth-like world developed sentient life at roughly the same rate that ours did, then they’d have an extra 3 billion years, on average, to evolve both biologically and technologically.

    It’s quite literally unimaginable what a species like ours might achieve technologically over that kind of time span. But I think it’s very obvious that one thing they would’ve achieved is rapid and efficient interstellar spaceflight capability, because we already have an excellent understanding of how the physics of that works within our own unfailing theory of gravitation. I would expect that such civilizations would’ve achieved vastly more confounding technological achievements than that - many of which would appear to be “magic” at our stage of development. And we know this to be true: if we could show an ancient Roman soldier a Naval laser cannon – that would appear to be magic to him. And that’s a difference of just 2000 years. We’re facing a gap of billions of years, on average, between us and our neighbors. In our wildest dreams, we can’t envision what capabilities the advancement of technology could yield across that kind of time span. But crossing the distance of a few light-years in a matter of weeks, days, or even hours, seems like a mundane expectation for such a civilization, given the perspective of our best scientific knowledge today

    That’s how I see it anyway. I’m always surprised when someone like humanoidlord fails to see the clarity and power of this very logical and empirically well-founded argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
    • Like Like x 3
  15. ben-keshet

    ben-keshet Novice

    Messages:
    1
    Hello all.

    Interesting thread.

    I would say that neither Vallee nor Keel drove the very public Condon panel to reject UFOs as a topic for USAF scrutiny. The Condon panel did that themselves by examining USAF reports, and Condon was an expert physicist. Political? Whatever. In 1969 it wasn’t Keel or Vallee who “discredited” the ETH.

    Regardless, I do not defend terminology or ideas proffered by Vallee, Keel or others. I only speak for myself. I’ve had two potential sightings, though I am pretty sure both were mundane, one probably a bolide, and the other a spectacular slowly reentering satellite.

    On the other hand, while studying at university, I was struck by the complexities of the spdf orbitals as something elegant beyond a “random chance” accident. That and other science issues, together with a number of anomalous experiences, led me past my upbringing of naturalism to a theistic view of reality.

    So, I’ve pondered my anomalous experiences: How can a discrete, so-called “non-corporal” sentient being know my thoughts and interact with me? My conjecture is that sentient intelligence is not confined to structures made solely of Standard Model particles. This concept will be a major hurdle for many people. The fact is, all Standard Model particles in the universe occur within the “vacuum.” So, yeah, in my best Keanu Reeves impression, “What is the ‘Vacuum’?” I haven’t read of anyone who is confident that they know what the vacuum “substance” is composed of. I get the impression that many think of it as a roiling quantum sea that continuously produces infinite pairs of self-annihilating virtual particles, together with the actual particles that make up our universe. As I understand things, in our “upper” side of the quantum vacuum (Planck length or greater), all causal interactions are limited in speed to c, or the speed of light.

    So, if one be permitted to speculate, based on the pattern of discoveries of late 19th and 20th century physics that revealed a great deal of astonishingly small “substance” to the universe that was previously unknown:

    What if there is, on the less-than-Planck-length “under side” of the quantum vacuum – tentatively the sub-quantum (SQ) – a different “Standard Model” of SQ particles many orders of magnitude smaller than our Standard Model particle zoo? Such SQ particles would ostensibly be all around us, engulfing us, and through-and-through us, and perhaps part of our very being as well. Yet, we would not be able to isolate and study them. What if our own consciousness is based on structures that include such SQ particles?​

    Too, what if there are also intelligent sentient beings composed only of SQ particles?​

    What if such SQ sentient beings can, and do, interact up through the Planck-length divide into our macro-Planck, Standard Model side? And if so, then perhaps these SQ entities can “precipitate” any element on our Periodic Table here on our side of the quantum vacuum, at will, in any form they like. Not exactly like heating up a mixture of metals to form a figure, but perhaps not that far from the idea, except that these SQ entities don’t need molds.​

    Then too, what if the SQ rate of causality is much faster than c? (?Perhaps related to what we see as “entanglement”?) That would potentially give SQ sentient entities speed of thought and action in the SQ domain much faster than us, and they could conceivably cause phenomena that, to us, do not conform to physics.​

    What if some of these SQ sentient entities detest human beings and continually do stuff to torment and deceive us? UFOs have been and remain so tantalizingly coy. Many people’s boundless enthusiasm for the subject is a serious distraction from pressing life-issues. And if “abduction” is actually related to UFOs, then it could be taken as evidence of such harassment.​

    Reject my conjecture if inclined. I concede that it is not proof. It is my speculation for myself, trying to understand my personal experiences. The bottom line, from my theistic view, is that there is an infinite-infinitesimal foundation of reality that upholds all other aspects of all of reality, the supreme Being, as written, “In him we live and move and have our being.”

    I can only think of a few even semi-credible multiple witness UFO - CE3 cases. None seems to me to prove what their origin is, much less the ETH. So, any view, ETH included, would be an extrapolation.

    Kelly Hopkinsville Encounter,


    Father Gill in Papua New Guinea,
    Anglican father and UFO 1959 at DuckDuckGo

    Gaffney, SC – two cops encounter a disc and a little man who spoke excellent English,


    Pascagoula, Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker,


    Voronezh, USSR,
    Voronezh UFO Landing, 1989

    Ariel School,


    So, I was passin’ by. First post. Prolly my last. Oh well … Best wishes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Awesome Awesome x 1
  16. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Adept

    Messages:
    46
    I'm not questioning that UFOs, whatever their origin, represent an advanced technology. I agree, they have the characteristics of some kind of field propulsion. But you must, I think, consider the possibility that some UFOs (e.g. the black triangle type that only became common since the 80s) represent terrestrial black project activity. An examination of the many disinformation operations that have been run shows an emphasis on the alien craft hypothesis, and that can certainly be to deflect attention away from domestic operations. Also, looked at historically, UFOs seen in previous years (i.e. before 1947 and Kenneth Arnold) rarely conformed to the standard discoid form -- airships and aeroplanes maybe, but nothing more advanced than that. Assuming we are dealing with extraterrestrials, why would they copy our own developments in 1897 and 1909 then switch to what was only a prototype in the 1940s of the discs of Townsend Brown and the German designs? Caution is required.

    I don't doubt that an advanced civilisation could, indeed must, have made discoveries and inventions totally beyond our current understanding. Some UFOs might well fall into this category. But we do need to take into account the clear connections between UFO activity and other phenomena. For example, Lagarde's classic study on the connection between fault lines and UFO landing cases; Randles' study of a specific geographical area, the Pennines in the UK, where every type of strange phenomenon imaginable takes place with greater frequency than elsewhere, including UFOs, humanoids, gnomes, ghosts, time slips, dimensional slips, abductions, and some that defy description. It may be that these window areas, as they are called, play a part in some non conventional form of travel. It's not a matter of taking any possibility on faith, as you put it, but in making sure that we don't neglect anything that might offer more clues.
     
  17. Carl Grove

    Carl Grove Adept

    Messages:
    46
    I hope this isn't your last post, because it raises a lot of very interesting possibilities. I can't pretend to understand your physics speculations but they seem to be heading in a sensible direction.
    The cases you quote are all significant ones, and raise lots of questions. The fact that you refer obliquely to your own experiences is also significant, because I too have had plenty of experiences many of which defy any simple physical explanation, and I think that such things open ones mind to a wider range of possibilities than our current theories encompass.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. SOUL-DRIFTER

    SOUL-DRIFTER Life Long Researcher

    Messages:
    1,576
    Yes, but a very rare thing, not a usual one in the least.
     
  19. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    the problem is that it just proves that aliens exist, something wich is an obvious fact to anyone with a brain but it doesn't proves that UFOs are alien
    meanwhile the other papers show that UFOs are a real anomalous phenomena but leaves open their origins
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. humanoidlord

    humanoidlord ce3 researcher

    Messages:
    4,214
    don't mention AATIP and TTSA please, unless you want to date your post very seriously to future readers
    there is as much evidence that they are a big set up as there is evidence they are the real deal
    i see you are still using the idea that we are dealing with a entire civilization instead of just one entity, both vallee and keel ruled that out
    not too different of how despite all my trouble argumenting with you, you still can't see the obvious
     

Share This Page