The reality of God?

Discussion in 'Knowledge of the Spirit' started by nivek, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Dundee

    Dundee Fading day by day.

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    I have a difficult time with what you are calling fine tuning.

    You used the Big Bang as an example.
    This is something that essentially came from nothing, and created everything their is.
    Can you for a second imagine the almost infinite possibilities that may have came into existence in that instant?
    How many alternate possibilities might there have been.
    So the big bang happens and all the possibilities that may exist mix up. Those that work, survive, and become part of reality.
    Those that wont work, never come into existence.
    Now we have a universe of sorts full of whatever the hell the big bang created.
    All those elements buzzing around bumping into each other.
    Who knows what was there in those first moments of the universe.
    But the elements that were able to combine in one way or another did.
    The elements that did not work, did not.
    Leaving just the stuff that work. There is no fine tuning here at all. Just stuff that works that survives, and the stuff that does not work that fails.

    So now jump a few billion years and we have planets, stars, plants animals and all the wonder that makes up our universe. By this time, all the possibilities that arose that failed because they did not fit into the nature of our world have disappeared.
    All that is left, is the stuff that worked.

    Now imagine I find an uninhabited island somewhere. So I grab a boat, I grab Lions, Sheep, and bees. I stick them in a boat, and drop them off on the Island. Only on the island their is only masses of tiny flowers.
    The sheep do OK, because they eat the flowers, The bees do OK because they make honey from the flowers.
    But the Lions need meat, so, they need to eat the sheep. After a time, the last sheep has been eaten, then, after a time, with no food, the last Lion dies of starvation. 10,000, years later you land on the island in a boat, and are blown away by the amazing harmony that exists between the beautiful plants and flowers, and the masses of gorgeous beehives and bees that populate the island. So you say, "My goodness, how can something so amazing exist. Look at the fine tuning that exists to make this perfectly harmonious Island, and the balance between the bees and the flowers. Something this wonderful could only exist by the fine tuning of god.
    But the reality is, It was never fine tuning. It was simply that all the things that did not work in the environment, (the sheep and the Lions) disappeared long a go, leaving only the things that could work on the island.
    This is natural Selection
    Not Fine tuning.
    Does that make sense?
     
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  2. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Maybe the alleged big bang was the result of an implosion of another universe...That implosion cracking through to this universe and exploding outward, our big bang...
     
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  3. Dundee

    Dundee Fading day by day.

    Messages:
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    I have heard that. I have a real problem with the concept of "Nothing" existing before the Big Bang.
    And I can't get my head round "Non" Infinity either.
    So who know, the big bang might have been just the latest Bang in an infinite number of bangs.
     
  4. pepe

    pepe Noble

    Messages:
    524
    It helps me to think of the nothing as an absolute constant solid antonym for critical mass. Solid space of every element that fractured due to friction heat and broke up only wanting to reassemble but now repelled and held up by an opposite state.

    Only because is it an impossibility to envisage absolute nothing. It is impossible to empty a mind, only reduction. It really does have to be on of two things but I won't rule out a sneaky third.

    1. Abracadabra.

    2. The universe has been so forever with no beginning or end. This one is also impossible.

    Sneaky 3. Nothing is real so the question becomes irrelevant.
     
  5. notdej

    notdej Honorable

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    494
    yep- that is also my theory
     
  6. pepe

    pepe Noble

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    524
    I don't know if that was understandable.

    But I got it. The nothing is everything in the densest state their can be that has just always been there. Just read the above and it doesn't root cause the answer, just a corridor of mirrors. You know that bit of water that shoots back up your trumpet when you pinch one off ? Spat out of the business end of the pool and left as a bacterial smear. Shouldn't even be here.
     
  7. pepe

    pepe Noble

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    524
    Nothing = Everything.

    Everything must = Nothing.

    No thing was a thing because it was once everything which is what we think of as nothing.
     
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  8. notdej

    notdej Honorable

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    494
    yeah i get what you're saying pepe me ol' mate!

    the kind of 'nothing' you're trying to explain cannot even be given a name because if it's given a name it becomes something.

    this is what I've always thought when trying to describe existence (relative to the individual) 'before' we are born
     
  9. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

    Messages:
    818
    The Way that can be walked is not the eternal Way.

    The Way is empty, yet inexhaustible, like an abyss!

    Obscure, like muddy waters.

    The Way is eternal. Until your last day, you are free from peril.

    I do not know its name. I call it the Way. For the lack of better words I call it great.

    The Way is ever nameless.

    The great Way is all-pervading. It reaches to the left and to the right. All things depend on it with their existence. Still it demands no obedience.

    It (Tao) is eternally without desire. So, it can be called small. All things return to it, although it does not make itself their ruler. So, it can be called great.

    Words spoken about the Way have no taste. When looked at, there’s not enough to see. When listened to, there’s not enough to hear. When used, it is never exhausted.

    Returning is the movement of the Way.

    The light of the Way seems dim.

    The progress of the Way seems retreating.

    The straightness of the Way seems curved.

    The Way is hidden and nameless. Still only the Way nourishes and completes.

    -Lao Tzu
     
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  10. notdej

    notdej Honorable

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    494
    what was Lao Tzu smoking when he/she wrote this?:wink8:
     
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  11. pepe

    pepe Noble

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    524
    Phew, I thought I had wandered too far. Your second sentence I like, could be AI is the only tool for such a catch 22.
     
  12. pepe

    pepe Noble

    Messages:
    524
    Posted that before I wanted.

    It does seem the lose ends can't be tied by a mortal. Brings the thought of endless cycles with a seamless quality that gives the impression of a linear direction. Red herring if ever in saw one.
     
  13. pepe

    pepe Noble

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    524
    Humanization of our supposed God is another default setting issue. I have been called out for humanizing when attempting to put across a possible theory for the existence of none human entities. No one can think outside the box, it's why we claim we can.
     
  14. Kchoo

    Kchoo Terrestrial

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    1,893
    I like everything. Does that mean I also like nothing?
     
  15. pepe

    pepe Noble

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    524
    Nothing is impossible.
     
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  16. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    The only thing possible is the impossible...
     
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  17. Athena ashford

    Athena ashford Honorable

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    110
    you cannot touch a flower ,without trembling a star .
     
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  18. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    By that theory, one universe ends and helps create another, maybe a black hole consumed so much material, got so large and so much force and gravity it imploded, ripping apart that universe and exploding into our universe givimg this universe the building blocks and energy to begin here...One day happening again, perhaps in our universe, an out of control black hole gulping down entire systems and galaxies, finally imploding, ripping apart whatever was left and exploding out into another place, another universe...
     
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  19. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Every moment of life brings an opportunity to be conscious, in spite of all the activities and movements on the surface, the key is not to forget oneself when one sees a thing of beauty...
     
  20. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    12,357
    Rudolf Steiner said something similar I think, I'll see if I can find it again...

    Living in a universe that must pass through Time, it would seem logical that once something is created within that universe and with the passing of Time the creation would have been forgotten or pushed aside in favour of other theories...

    ...
     
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