U.S. Navy video that has been in the news - dismantled. What do you think?

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by Creepy Green Light, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light Don't mistake lack of talent for genius

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  2. Standingstones

    Standingstones Celestial

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    This is a photo from that link. The caption from this photo reads: "The audience is thrilled by the dramatic revelations at the 2018 MUFON Symposium." LOL. They look bored and sleepy to me.


    AudienceZondoTalk.jpg
     
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  3. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light Don't mistake lack of talent for genius

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    about 4 years ago, I made the mistake of going to a UFO meeting/group here in NJ. I thought I was going to die from second hand embarrassment - from the "leader" presenting bogus photos of aliens & UFOs (to pass around the room where everyone would hold them and oooh & ahhh over them) to the ridiculous questions that people would ask in front of everyone. There were a couple of cool people there but the rest were total weirdos and goobers. Needless to say, I never went back for a second meeting.
     
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  4. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Unapologetic Rationalist & Grand Regent of Taraka

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    Frankly I detest Robert Scheaffer’s intensely negative and faux-skeptical position on ufology, as well as his writing. He’s among the small army of “ufology cynics” who are all competing to be the loudest and most derisive voice in the room, while offering nothing of substance or value on the topic.

    This blog article is the typical kind of dreck that’s flooding the field these days. So I took a moment to tear it apart, which is exactly what it deserves:

    Wrong. Study some physics, Robert.

    These craft are clearly utilizing a gravitational field propulsion system, not a reaction propulsion system (they have no emissions, so they're obviously not reaction propulsion devices) – so these high-school physics assumptions of yours are entirely inapplicable here.

    As Alcubierre explained in his seminal 1994 paper The warp drive: hyper-fast travel within general relativity, the gravitational field propulsion metric provides a spacetime gradient which the craft follows along a null geodesic, aka free-fall, i.e, with zero reaction forces. Using such a system, which these devices clearly and consistently demonstrate, a craft could accelerate from a dead stop to an arbitrarily high velocity (which depends solely on the field intensity) in an attosecond – and yet the ship and any crew inside the field wouldn’t feel the slightest sense of acceleration. There are no g-forces whatsoever with a field propulsion mechanism of this kind. This is because the craft is uniformly accelerated all at once - unlike the primitive reaction propulsion systems that we humans are using today, which transfer force mechanically from a thruster, such as a jet engine, to the rest of the craft.

    That’s a red herring, a form of logical fallacy. Some people mistakenly attributed a dramatic acceleration to the craft in that footage (which probably wasn't the Tic-Tac ufo reported by the pilots, because that footage was taken subsequently by different pilots and many objects were reported during that time) – I think Bruce Maccabee made that error. So did many others.

    But the footage is irrelevant: the pilots and the radar operators have all described extremely dramatic accelerations. The word “instantaneous” is an overstatement – it would require infinite temporal resolution to perfectly determine the rate of acceleration of an object. But the pilots described accelerations which were essentially instantaneous – they described the motion of the Tic-Tac ufo as akin to watching a ping-pong ball reflecting off of invisible walls. For all practical purposes of discussion, that’s indistinguishable from instantaneous accelerations. And the USS Nimitz CSG radar operator Kevin Day described the other objects that they saw on their radar screens during the 1-2 weeks of those incidents, dropping from 28,000ft down to 50ft above the surface of the ocean in the span of a single radar pass of .78 second. That’s a minimum acceleration of 5600 g’s, but it was probably higher – we’d need a much faster radar sampling rate to know the precise rate of acceleration. But the craft wouldn’t have felt a thing, because a gravitational field propulsion system exerts no force on the craft; it distorts the field of spacetime around the craft, changing its position without changing its momentum.

    And the other radar operator who has come forward to tell his account, Trevor, described the optical gun camera footage showing a domed craft that changed position so rapidly that it appeared to vanish from one position and reappear at a distant position faster than the camera could capture the motion. That’s also, for all practical considerations, instantaneous acceleration. The only principle known to theoretical physics which can produce this type of motion is gravitational “warp” field propulsion.

    More “bad science” at the Bad UFOs blog. Robert evidently never bothered to listen to the interviews with the radar operators Kevin Day and Trevor, which I cited above. The radar tracked these objects dropping from 28,000ft down to 50ft above the ocean within .78 second – that’s a minimum average speed of 24,000mph, over 31 times the speed of sound, aka Mach 31. The objects leapt back up to 28,000ft altitude within the same time interval, when the US jet interceptors left the area.

    Granted, the DoD has not released the radar tracking data, and I presume that they never will. But Kevin Day and the other radar operators on duty that day noted the key numbers at the time of the events, so I’ll take them at their word unless somebody can give me a sensible reason to do otherwise.

    No, he’s not talking about typical radar stealth technology – he’s talking about optical and infrared and radar stealth – a much wider range of capabilities. He’s discussed this before in other interviews. These objects are hard to see clearly, for reasons unknown. They’re difficult to capture clearly on optical video and FLIR. And they can somehow prevent a radar targeting lock. In short – they represent a superior aerial technology with exotic maneuverability characteristics and superior defensive measures in every meaningful regard.

    This is what’s so loathsome about the wannabe debunker, “UFO cynic” strategy – feigning ignorance of the entire field in order to bolster empty assertions.

    First of all, the Nimitz CSG radar operators have testified that they watched these objects drop down from above the ceiling of their radar – 80,000ft (or 15 miles), down to 28,000ft, and even down to 50ft over the ocean within .78 second – and then back up to the same altitude and at the same rate - when approached by interceptors. So the space-to-atmosphere intermedium travel is evident in this case.

    But people have been reporting AAVs plunging into the ocean for decades. The Shag Harbor incident is one of hundreds if not thousands of credible reports of this.

    So Luis Elizondo is correct in speaking generally, that space-to-air and air-to-water transit is a common feature of AAV reports.

    What a joke. First he tries to discredit the raft of peer-reviewed physics papers on the subject of gravitational field propulsion – a concept which has been proven to be consistent with and permissible within the theory of general relativity, by trying to ascribe the whole subject to Hal Puthoff, and then making a stupid ad hominem attack against him.

    But then he makes the absurd claim that “ordinary physicists” “think this is all nonsense.” Maybe “ordinary physicists” tend to think that it’s nonsense…although asserting any kind of consensus to an entire field of scientists is a pointless popularity contest that has little if any bearing on the merits of a scientific concept. But “extraordinary physicists,” on the other hand, have been pursuing this idea in the peer-reviewed academic literature for decades, going back to Hermann Bondi in the 1950s, then moving on to Robert L. Forward’s pioneering work on the subject from the 1960's to the 1990’s, and ultimately culminating with a vibrant wave of theoretical research ever since Alcubierre’s startling paper in 1994.

    In fact, it’s not entirely uncommon nowadays to hear astrophysicists talk about “dark energy” as an “antigravity field,” because that’s exactly what it is – a repulsive gravitational field, which is the key component to a gravitational field propulsion system.

    So only the most “ordinary” aka uninitiated physicists today, still scoff at the notion of antigravity. Because ever since 1998, cosmologists have known that it’s a real physical phenomenon in our universe.

    Let’s ignore the idiotic closing remark there, and move on to the substance of this discussion. We know that a metric curvature of spacetime in the configuration of the Alcubierre metric provides a viable gravitational field propulsion mechanism with no theoretical upper limit on velocity. We humans haven’t figured out how to produce that metric yet – it’s beyond our current technology. But clearly, other species have figured it out, and they’re using it to visit the Earth, and deftly outmaneuver our most advanced fighter jets along the way.

    Apparently Robert hasn’t read Sen. Harry Reid’s 2009 letter requesting Restricted Special Access Program (SAP) classification with a bigoted distribution list for the AATIP – note that this letter was designated FOIA exempt at the bottom. The fact that FOIA requests have been denied indicates that the program was and is still classified. Apparently Sen. Reid got his requested SAP classification for the program. And in the original NYT article this subject came up twice, and we learned that the AATIP was originally funded on black budget money, which is used to fund classified programs:

    "The shadowy program — parts of it remain classified — began in 2007, and initially it was largely funded at the request of Harry Reid, the Nevada Democrat who was the Senate majority leader at the time and who has long had an interest in space phenomena."

    "None of the three senators wanted a public debate on the Senate floor about the funding for the program, Mr. Reid said. “This was so-called black money,” he said. “Stevens knows about it, Inouye knows about it. But that was it, and that’s how we wanted it.” Mr. Reid was referring to the Pentagon budget for classified programs."

    Leave the prognosticating to the Tarot card readers, Robert.

    It seems clear to me that Luis Elizondo was referring to new material which we’ll see within the next year, such as the analyses of physical samples now on-going with the ADAM Project. If they get hold of a sample as interesting as the exotic photonic metamaterial that they’ve talked about, or the sample from Argentina that Jacques Vallée recently described which was found to contain isotopic ratios that appear nowhere in nature – and in fact which must have been separated into their individual isotopes and then recombined in a perfect ratio of thirds for purposes beyond the understanding of modern materials science, then we’ll have significant evidence of superior technology coming to the Earth from unknown origins.

    But it looks like Robert Sheaffer and the army of cynics like him will still be bending over backwards to see who can yawn the loudest, even when we finally get compelling physical empirical evidence of AAVs visiting the Earth.

    So I'll keep taking my own council instead, and do my best to parse the data and form my own conclusions, and with a little luck, figure out how these devices are producing the dipolar gravitational field required to yield the astonishing maneuvers that we've been witnessing in our skies for the last 70 years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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  5. Ron67

    Ron67 Ignorance isn’t bliss!

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    I went to one with Spectre 73 from the paracast forums.We had to leave the auditorium at one point as we were in stitches laughing at some of the ridiculous things presented.As you say most of the people in attendance were brain donors!.
     
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  6. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light Don't mistake lack of talent for genius

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    Ha. I can relate. I thought it was going to be serious guys that knew their stuff (say, like a Paul Kimball for example). Not even close. The very first picture he passed around was a known fake and I was in disbelief that all the people their bought into it. Then every time someone raised their hand to ask a question or make a statement, it was so embarrassing you wanted to slide down in your chair and pull your ball cap over your eyes. At the very end they invited me to go to a diner that they all go to after the meeting which of course, I didn't go. The kicker was is that it was about a 45 minute drive each way to the library where the meetings are held.
     
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  7. Ron67

    Ron67 Ignorance isn’t bliss!

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    I'm an idiot then because I travelled several hundred miles to Scotland and paid for a hotel!.I did meet Spectre and he's a top bloke and also met Goggs,very intense guy.Some of the images were so bad I thought it was a wind up.Worth the money because some of it was inadvertently comedy gold.
    There was one good presentation by a Scottish guy about the Bonnybridge Triangle (80's UFO flap).The rest was mainly dross.
     
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  8. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Sheaffer has already made up his mind on the topic as a whole and nothing is going to dissuade him - including a White House lawn landing. True Disbelievers are a natural foil to True Believers, and there's an awful lot of bullshit floating around at these conferences to fuel them.

    That said, I find what Elizondo has been saying very compelling but in this instance I tend to agree with Sheaffer. The shine has come off of too many iconic cases for me to get overly excited just yet.

    "Elizondo began his talk with the prediction, "I think the same time next year we're going to have a fundamentally different conversation," " Let's re-visit that prediction on July 29, 2019 to see how well it holds up. My prediction is, at that time the conversation will still be same old, same old."

    Well, right now my calendar is open.

    To be taken more seriously and add some weight to what he's saying Elizondo should be addressing groups not already loaded up one way or the other with ufology. Public interest. Book a few college campus lectures like Hynek and Friedman used to, go talk to a Rotary Club. Maybe he has and I am unaware of it. Get away from the kooks. TTSA has an entertainment division - put it to use.
     
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  9. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light Don't mistake lack of talent for genius

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    Wow! Where did you travel from? I was going to ask if you met or knew Goggs. I used to love listening to him on The Paracast as he seemed to have a good head on his shoulders. I would have loved to have been at a conference with him or others like him. But the thing I went to - people were impressed with crap like George Adamski's garbage videos & photos. It was quite disappointing. At least you got to see Scotland though, right?
     
  10. Ron67

    Ron67 Ignorance isn’t bliss!

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    I travelled about 230 miles from Liverpool to Falkirk.Goggs has an Aberdonian accent but Spectre is a proper Glaswegian.I almost needed subtitles to understand!
     
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  11. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light Don't mistake lack of talent for genius

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    Aberdonian & Glaswegian; two words I never heard of until today - so I learned something new :) I never got to go to the UK, France, Germany etc. Only countries I've been to are Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Italy (Sicily) & Iceland. Wish I could have gone to the UK, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Austria & some others.
     
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  12. Creepy Green Light

    Creepy Green Light Don't mistake lack of talent for genius

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    I'm not the expert in FLIR or other automated inflight camera systems - but it's too bad that these recently released Navy videos aren't as clear as the camera we had on the P-3C Orion which produces sharp videos like this;

     
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  13. Rick Hunter

    Rick Hunter Honorable

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    When did the Su-27 enter service? It looks like a mishmash of U.S. designs.
     
  14. Standingstones

    Standingstones Celestial

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    The SU-27 entered service in 1985 so it’s been around for a good while.
     
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