What's wrong with a Belief in God?

Discussion in 'Knowledge of the Spirit' started by Shadowprophet, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet N=R^.fp.ne.f1.fi.fc.L

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    Before I begin this thread, I need to lay down some explanations. There was once a Time, I tried to speak about this very subject, It, as these subjects can and often do, went awry.

    This is not my intention. What I want, is a discussion about Society And Beliefs and the perceived stereotypes that follow literally anyone who professes a belief in something. This is a difficult and some would rightfully site, dangerous topic, As Many when it comes to the idea of a Deity, Have more feelings than actual thoughts, I want to stress, This is not a Debate on the "existence of" thread.

    This topic, Is not intended for or to be used as a means of casting judging upon someone else's belief system.
    If a Thread such as this Can Exist, Then it is a testament to how reserved and enlightened we really are. I want to know, Why I can't talk about Science to my Christian Friends, And Why I can't talk about my beliefs in God, With my Science minded friends, Why do these two things conflict one another?

    I tell you, I've spent my whole life studying, I really have, But To either Side, When I profess a belief in the other, Both sides attack my intelligence, If I profess a belief in God to a scientist, Many will instantly make intellectual assumptions of me, Completely disregarding years upon years of actually knowing me. And, To be completely fair, I love Science, I will die loving Science, But, If I begin talking about how the universe formed in a scientific way to friends that are Christian, Well they are ready to fight.

    I am able to please no one, people expect me to choose a side and deny the other. Universally years of trying to sharpen my mind as fine as I can make it, Means nothing to anyone When I profess my beliefs openly, Literally, There is no way I can be myself Because these topics are so polarizing, It's unthinkable to believe both and not choose a side. Why? What is so wrong even Loving and knowing as much science as I do, What is so wrong with believing in something without proof? Do we not all do this same thing in one way or another?

    I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts.
     
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  2. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Those two things do not conflict with one another, but the people who are stern believers of either of those two things do however conflict with one another...

    ...
     
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  3. Kchoo

    Kchoo Lunar Goon III Pilot

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    I like science, because it helps explain stuff....

    Gods are nothing more than idols... icons... tokens... stories... to represent mysterious things science cannot explain.

    We are simply not smart enough to know if God is real.

    God is an ideal... a representation of something better, because we know we are inadequate by ourselves...

    God is used to explain creation, and rules on how to live, and changes from year to year, culture to culture...

    Science is the study of rocks... bones, chemistry, physics, strength of materials, reactions, and how to use them. It is not so dynamic, once we know how something works, that process does not change because its proprties are defined, static...
     
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  4. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    We have Gods and we have science.

    The real elite are waiting for us at the end of evolution rainbow.

    Trinity everywhere.
     
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  5. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet N=R^.fp.ne.f1.fi.fc.L

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    It's very True, I'm not immune, I've had my fair share of stern beliefs, I learned as I got older, that a belief is just that. Beliefs and the only time beliefs are worth fighting for is simply in the cases that people are forced to defend their beliefs.

    As I get older, I don't feel anyone should ever really have to defend their beliefs. People can just have them, You know :)
     
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  6. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    Every faith and proven science are of the same equation. We have morphed as one life into what we are, from basic division to savagery to reflection via evolution. From the single cell it had reason as it does today, we are under test conditions with extinction as our failing.

    I believe in greater beings and that science is the key to us attaining the greater level.

    We are in the making.
     
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  7. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    384
    If Sesame Street had always been brought to you by the number 3 and the letter Y, we would have it sussed out by now.

    It's a paradox with a key whole which opens the door to what was once perceived as absurdity, that ensures life a permanent stasis. Like a blind thing it looks for the light. Or we are just a bi product of an intergalactic stain that has developed into a self centered fungal culture that has an expiry date.

    I've got my fingers crossed.
     
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  8. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    Oh I could go on...

    Three breeds of ape are we. Once covered by hair that I think is linked to our three human hair types. Blacks , whites and browns. Nothing to do with colour but the structural difference used in modern forensics to determine the cultural identity of a J Doe. Pretty logical.

    The temperements of our three primary cultures are reflected in those of the three great apes. Of who will become one in another form.

    Returning to the source.
     
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  9. pepe

    pepe Honorable

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    See... I've gone too far again, just like Fry.
     
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  10. Kchoo

    Kchoo Lunar Goon III Pilot

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    It always comes back to a begining and an end.

    Perhaps God is simply the big story, and we are just small chapters.
     
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  11. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet N=R^.fp.ne.f1.fi.fc.L

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    @pepe

    No, No brother, It's just in my view even those distinctions are arbitrary. everyone in the human genome seems to be at least 98 percent genetically identical. In most cases, Even more than that within families. I think things like Hair color, Eye color Skin color, even certain mindsets, are really just flavors of ice cream, very little difference at the core of the issue, mostly aesthetic.

    I know so many won't agree with me. But I think that's only because people, in general, don't want to accept that they are so alike to others that seem so different from them in either Skin color or sexual preference or religious beliefs. In the end, We all have to listen to our wives constantly nag on us to fix the garage door. "metaphorically"

    The differences themselves between peoples ranging from their ideas to their skin color to what God they worship. We make them seem like huge differences because it's all we have to keep us from being the same...

    You know? It's kind of like an identity thing I guess for many.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  12. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Downing petulant pilots with logic since 2018

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    I don't have a problem with a "belief in God," I have a problem with "belief" itself.

    Because "belief" is a lie. There are only two categories of understanding: knowledge and ignorance. "Belief" is ignorance masquerading as knowledge - which is a lie. We tend to tolerate these lies to maintain a level of civility with one another, because it's considered to be impolite to say to somebody: "believing in something just means that you're lying to yourself - you don't know if there's a God or not, but you're pretending to know, and that's intellectually dishonest."

    And to make matters even worse, we have two uses of the word "belief" which are completely different. There's the use of the word "belief" in the sense of religion and other fairy tales, and then there's the phrase "believe in" which can either mean "to have a belief in" or it can simply mean "to have confidence in." So when I say "I believe in science," people can readily mistake that to mean "I have a belief in science," as if believing in the long and proven successes of science is in some imaginary way equivalent to believing in some deity or another. The language itself sets up a false equivalence, which is dangerous and revolting.

    Personally I strive to murder any "belief" that I find lurking in my mind, because belief is self-delusion, and none of that should be tolerated within an honest mind.

    But people are very uncomfortable saying "I don't know," I suppose because we're a very arrogant species and admitting to any form of ignorance, no matter how reasonable or pervasive, is perceived to be some kind of weakness. And that's a systemic disease within our cultural mindset, because all real knowledge and intelligence begins with the personal admission of "I don't know," since the next step is "let's find out," and that's the root of all human progress; spiritually, personally, and scientifically.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  13. Kchoo

    Kchoo Lunar Goon III Pilot

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    I am still amazed at how people seem to NEED a deity so much.

    What drives it?
     
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  14. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Downing petulant pilots with logic since 2018

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    The fear of death, the agony of loss, the confusion over widespread injustice and tragedy: the usual suspects.
     
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  15. michael59

    michael59 Noble

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    There's is something there and I agree with, Thomas, let's find out!

    Stuff happens to me. Inexplicable things that are not unique to me but, I no longer brush it off like most people would. In the past when something inexplicable happened I would try to think of a reason or understanding for it and if I couldn't, I would just file it away in my head or in other words bury it. All I can say for sure is something watches over me.

    When I was 7 years old I skipped school and went to the zoo by myself. It was only 2 blocks away from my home in Toronto. I purchased a small bag of popcorn from one of the vendors and then I went over to where the Gorilla and Orangutans were on display. I was standing in front of the Orangutan cage and no one else was around. He stretched out his arm with his palm facing upward and waited patiently. At first I was scared so, I kinda tossed a piece into his hand but, he was so deliberately slow in his movements that I just knew he meant no harm. I got a little braver with each piece that I gave him until I actually touched his skin when I placed a piece on his palm. Then it seemed a voice came from out of nowhere and said, "He'll rip your arm off, little girl!" I was so startled that I jumped in the air as I turned around to face one of the zookeepers.

    He told me how strong incredibly strong they were and that they were very unpredictable. Then he continued on chatting. Asking stuff like why wasn't I in school....I was listening to him and even responding to his questions but, the whole time I stood there I had what amounted to what felt like electrical shocks passing threw my torso and a voice in my head repeating the phrase, "Danger, stay away from him." over and over again. Then he said, "So you like apes, eh? Come on, I have some free time because there's no one else here I'll give you a private tour of the Ape House." I said, "Okay, but I need to use the washroom first, so I'll meet you there." He said okay and turned and walked away. I handed what was left of my bag of popcorn to the Orangutan and took off running home.

    I remember it was about 2 weeks later, my mom was reading out loud from the newspaper about a zookeeper from the Toronto Zoo getting caught in the act of molesting a little girl in the Ape House.

    More recently, this happened:

    On Feb. 28th 2017, my next door neighbor, who doesn't have a car, and was short on cash, asked if I would take him to his brothers place because he had about $80 worth of bottles and cans for recycling that he (my neighbor) wanted to cash in. About halfway there, we were sitting at a stoplight and when it turned green, right when I stepped on the gas, I had this flash in my mind, it was really fast, only lasted about two seconds of me seeing a car accident. I told my neighbor about it. Here's how the conversation went...

    Me: That was weird.
    Him: What?
    Me: I just had a flash vision that I'm going to witness a car crash or maybe be involved in a car crash.
    Him: That is weird.
    Me: I know, right? I've never experienced a flash like that before.
    Him: You're a really good driver so, if anything it must mean you're going to witness one.
    Me: Well, I won't be happy about either scenario so, I vote that it was nothing.
    Him: Yep, me too.

    Then all was forgotten. We get there, he loads the bags in the car, then it's off to the bottle depot. I have no idea where it is so, he's giving me directions, turn left here, turn right here, blah, blah, blah...

    We're sitting at a stop sign and the sun was positioned so that even the visor didn't help. The glare was covering the entire windshield. I looked in all directions, thought it was safe and proceeded forward. I smashed right into a SUV, to my right, that was the exact same color as the shade it was in. I struck that SUV in the perfect location to cause it to do a complete spin around. Like a police pit maneuver.

    I took my foot off the gas and allowed the car to continue forward until we were out of the intersection and then parked. I couldn't believe how calm I felt. When I looked over to my neighbor, he was already halfway out of the car. He ran to the SUV and I could hear him asking if anyone was hurt. I have always known, in my heart & head that if I ever harmed anyone while driving, I would never be able to drive again. Hearing him ask that question was like a knife going straight threw me. The answer was no, no one was hurt.

    I said to my neighbor, do you remember that flash I had? His mouth dropped open, eyes opened wide, his hands flew into the air and he did a complete spin around. Then he said, "Wholly shit! It's the exact same intersection!"

    That's just 2 examples. I have plenty more.....
     
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  16. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet N=R^.fp.ne.f1.fi.fc.L

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    I was raised in an environment where from a young Age, I was taught what Fiction was, And at that Same Time, I was taught that God the Bible and spirituality were not fiction. While I do have my own views about God and Spirituality, Moreso, This is exactly what I'm looking for, I wanted to be able in a nonheated environment To be able to discuss these things,

    I have Questions, Like, What was it like When you were Young? Where you exposed to religion at a young age? What are your thoughts on Humans and Death, And a possible Afterlife? What are your opinions on the concept of intelligent design as a whole?

    I've always wanted to be able to ask these questions to someone, While at the same time, Not being in some sort of heated religion type debate, So this seems like the perfect opportunity.
     
  17. Rikki

    Rikki High Priestess

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    As much as we are the offspring of The Goddess, We Aught not think that she is like silver, Gold stone, or any image given by the hand and heart of man.
    One will not find belief in the pages of a book. Not the word of man. One finds faith in the works of nature. Look about you. Walk away from the city. Look for the unseen world.
    Do as I do and walk the two worlds.
    The world of form and the outer world.
    our true existence lies there.
    Is it essential to believe in God?
    No more then Belief in Fairies. But the moment you open the door to your heart to them they will come. When some one tells me I don't believe in the Goddess I smile because she believes in you. One should not come to faith because they fear death, But because they want to live.
    Faith enriches my life it gives it meaning. I serve not because My faith demands it but because I wish to.
    Religion does not make you a good person, you do.
    Blessed be
    Rikki
     
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  18. Kchoo

    Kchoo Lunar Goon III Pilot

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    What was it like When you were Young?
    Fantastic childhood. Raised Catholic, Smart Parents.

    Where you exposed to religion at a young age?

    Yes. I was just as perplexed by it as I was the idea of Santa Clause. I felt as if it were All lies.

    What are your thoughts on Humans and Death, And a possible Afterlife?

    When you die, you die... your energy is all that remains. You are not a spirit, or a ghost... you just leave behind an energy trail of your actions and existence that may or may not have a legacy living through your offspring and those that knew you.

    What are your opinions on the concept of intelligent design as a whole?

    The intelligence is in the simple existence of all things... matter...
    there is no higher purpose. WE are just a product of a perfect storm of all the things required to make a human, happening to exist in one place. Random.
     
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  19. Thomas R. Morrison

    Thomas R. Morrison Downing petulant pilots with logic since 2018

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    I think there's an abundance of evidence that we humans have barely begun to understand all of the types of sensory and cognitive abilities of the mind, and I think we still have a great deal to learn about physics, such as the nature of time.

    So I see these kinds of stories as indications of the things that we have yet to learn about ourselves and the physical dynamics of our reality. I think the guardian angel concept is just one of many possible interpretations of the kind of events you've described, and not a particularly likely interpretation.

    It often comes down to definitions. What you call "The Goddess," I might call "the cosmos." And perhaps the cosmos is conscious in some sense; after all, we don't understand the nature or the origin of consciousness yet, and that term might apply to any sufficiently complex system comprised of dynamic aggregates of matter and the flow of information between them. Perhaps the neutral network of the brain has more in common with the vast networks of galaxies strewn across the universe, than we realize. Some people think of the cosmos and it's remarkable physical laws as "God," such as Spinoza and Einstein. And if the cosmos does experience some sort of consciousness, then it would really be a matter of taste as to whether you'd choose to call it "The Goddess" or "the conscious universe."

    I'm not saying that one can't know. I'm saying that there's a vast gulf of difference between knowing and believing, and that belief is a lie. If you know, then you don't have to believe anything - it's a personal experiential fact for you. And I think that the great avatars of human history, like Buddha and Christ and Meera and Kabir and Lao Tzu, knew something that we don't. But we can't know what they knew without experiencing the state of consciousness that they experienced. "Belief" actually halts that personal process of discovery, because if you're pretending to know something that you don't actually know, then you won't go about discovering the truth of the matter for yourself, just as Buddha and Christ and Meera and Kabir and Lao Tzu did. And I think that's self-evident: you can't find what you're not looking for.

    I was raised without any theological conditioning either for or against religion, and I'm grateful for being given a blank slate to figure it out for myself. I remember seeing my friends being indoctrinated with Bible studies as kids, and feeling pity for them. I see it as psychological abuse to condition a young mind with externally enforced religious beliefs before they're old enough to think for themselves, and I think that religions in general would perish within a single generation if the practice of youthful indoctrination were banned.

    In my view, religion and spirituality are antithetical things; the first is a cessation of inquiry, the second is a vibrant process of exploration and discovery.

    There are profound truths to be discovered in this life, which can only be discovered at the personal level. I think that religious indoctrination cripples the mind's natural ability to pursue and attain a direct personal apprehension of those truths.

    Ultimately our individual identity, or "self," appears to be an illusion produced by the brain, and we may actually be the consciousness itself that silently witnesses the activity of the brain. That consciousness may be some kind of field that pervades the entire universe, in which case the real "self" doesn't die when your body dies, anymore than it was born when you were born. In fact I don't even know if consciousness itself experiences time; it appears to be completely changeless. Perhaps consciousness itself is some kind of illusion. I don't know. But we do experience it - as do all creatures great and small, to varying degrees it would seem, so it's real to us, and perhaps that's all that really matters.

    I don't know if the universe is intelligent - if it's conscious, then it may also be intelligent. There's certainly a great deal of elegance and logic in the physical laws - can we define that as intelligence? Perhaps. Was the universe designed? That seems unlikely - how can something be designed prior to the creation of existence itself at the moment of the Big Bang? Maybe the universe is the way that it is, because it had to be exactly this way in order to exist in the first place. I tend to favor the "block universe" model where the entire 4D structure of reality is a fixed object, like a crystal, and our awareness is simply passing through it one second at a time. In that case, the final boundary conditions of the universe may be necessary for the Big Bang to happen in the first place. There's a field of theoretical physics known as retrocausailty which argues that physical reality is defined by the interaction of the final boundary conditions with the initial boundary conditions, so lately I'm leaning in favor of a model where the universe is what it is because it had to be this way to exist.
     
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  20. SOUL-DRIFTER

    SOUL-DRIFTER Life Long Researcher

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    They do not have to conflict.
    It is the individual that lets it be so.
    God and the role it has means different things to different people, same for science for those that are not science minded.
    A scientist can believe in a deity as a non-scientist but the perceptions of that deity will be different as well.
     
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