Arguments Against ETH

If you are going to invoke @Thomas R. Morrison I think he recently said he has produced a paper and submitted it for peer review. Hey, that's really cool - I couldn't do that. If he is the benchmark then let's see what those qualified to do so make of it.
He wasn't talking about my personal theoretical work; he was referring to the many discussions we've had here about the theoretical physics of gravitational field propulsion. There's a litany of published peer-reviewed papers relating to that subject dating back to Hermann Bondi, then advancing through Robert L. Forward's papers, fully manifesting in the form of Miguel Alcubierre's 1994 paper on the subject, and more recently making advances through the discovery of dark energy, and Manu Parajape's papers, and some interesting new theoretical advancements in the study of the exotic properties of photonic metamaterials and certain experiments with Bose-Einstein condensates and some other experiments which Martin Tajmar has written and spoken about.

My advocacy for the pursuit of a gravitational field technology is based on the published academic literature on the subject, and the perfect one-to-one match that I see between the performance characteristics and capabilities predicted by our current theoretical physics, and the performance characteristics most widely reported in the most compelling eyewitness and radar-visual accounts. From my perspective it seems very clear that eyewitnesses are seeing the technological embodiment of a theoretical physics concept that appears to be very sound in principle, but remains unattainable with contemporary human science and technology.

I often think that once we humans learn to build our own gravitational field propulsion systems, it will seem obvious that other civilizations have been employing that technology to visit our planet for a long time. And that exposes our profound conceit as a species: most of us think that this kind of technology is impossible, simply because we haven't figured out how to build it yet. But just look at how many things are technologically possible today, that would have sounded impossible only one century ago.

come on thomas! have you never heard those weirdos that say that they are in constant contact with aliens or are being abdcuted almost daily by them? i am talking about those people
Oh okay - I don't even think about those people: the David Wilcock's and Corey Good's of the world. They're just sideshow carnies turning a buck by selling crazy stories and silly BS to credulous crowds.

hmmm, i am interested, has any research ever been done in that sector by the scientific community?
I was being facetious, but I like to leave the door open to all kinds of possibilities. It seems very unlikely that any variety of life can exist in space without a technological enclosure to provide a suitable biosphere, but I don't rule it out completely.

Rail gun would do it.

HVW is the solution to most flying problems.

Current rail guns are 10 km/s and they should be able to ramp up 15 km/s.

By the time a target 10 klicks away realizes they have been fired at, they've been hit.
Projectile speed isn't the problem: it's targeting. The Navy has some great laser canons where the energy "projectile" travels at the speed of light: there's no way to defend against that kind of system unless you monitor its activation from a distance.

These craft tend to exhibit erratic and extreme accelerations - so extreme in fact that a targeting lock is impossible. No matter how fast your projectile is, such maneuvers totally defeat such an approach.

In my opinion, what you need is an area-of-effect energy weapon, if you want to try to bring one of these puppies down.

Sometimes I think about the grave concerns that our military must have had as early as the 1940s when they discovered that the airspace over our most sensitive nuclear and other installations was routinely being violated by anomalous targets with radical evasive capabilities. I think it's reasonable to consider that any capable scientist tasked with a defensive solution against such intrusions, would likely arrive at the same conclusion that a wide-angle field-effect weapon would be the best approach for defending our installations against such intrusions. With such a weapon aboard a rapid-response jet interceptor, you could try blaring a bunch of broadband energy at one of these anomalous intruders to see if you could interfere with its operation enough to bring it down - with some quality engineering you could blast an EMP beam at these things: if their systems aren't hardened against an attack like that, you might be able to send them crashing to the ground. Or perhaps you could try a wide-angle electron beam - we had that kind of technology even back then. With the kinds of brains and financing available to the US military, it wouldn't surprise me if we tried a variety of novel offensive weapons against these craft, and got lucky once or twice in the process.
 
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Dejan Corovic

As above, so bellow
But I just can't make that final step without something more solid. Is that honestly unreasonable?

It might come to you as a big surprise but expectation of "something more solid" is completely unreasonable :).

Big part of providing a proof in modern science is based on statistics, so there is nothing tangible there. Famously, British scientist Edington proved Einstein's theory of special relativity with a statistical sample of just 7 samples. In the case of UFOs and electric field's inverse square law there are 450 samples, so it is scientificaly very strong proof.

There are too many examples of how science uses statistics, but say majority of discoveries in medicine, biology, astrophysics, nuclear physics etc. were confirmed by statistics and than universaly accepted as truth.

With such a weapon aboard a rapid-response jet interceptor, you could try blaring a bunch of broadband energy at one of these anomalous intruders to see if you could interfere with its operation enough to bring it down

Not that one can maybe shoot down UFOs with mega strong radar beams, one can shoot down aeroplanes in that way. According to some press reports F-22 Raptor's radar is so strong that when focused it can fry electronics in other aeroplanes, if they are unlucky to come too close.
 
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Just speculating but has anyone tought that maybe the "alien beings" people allegedly keep seeing are not real evolved beings, but some sort of avatars or perhaps bred or constructed proxies made by the true aliens, which may be post biological or too strange, and theyre made for the sake of these landing scenarios and making contact more bearable for us? Maybe theyre testing the waters this way?

Some alledged aliens are too human looking IMO, like the "nordics", hard to think such being would evolve naturally and separate to such a similar body. Unless theyre just completely made up.

Of course if theyre some sort of avatars, then why use the others at all, why not just portray urself human all the time?
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Eyewitness testimony and theory do not constitute proof that we have been visited by extraterrestrial civilizations, it's a basis for thinking that it might be happening. That could just as easily be applied to other things that you might not so readily accept.
 
Its still intresting and more than what SETI has found so far, namely nothing. We have those testimonies and reports from most countries spanning decades, including my small one.

They should be looked at, not ignored or ridiculed all the time. After all, we only need a single one to be true and it will be the biggest discovery humanity has made, should it turn out to be ET or something even stranger. Too bad the hoaxers, nutters, charlatans and the mythology that has spawned in its wake have turned most of this subject into such a joke...
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Its still intresting and more than what SETI has found so far, namely nothing. We have those testimonies and reports from most countries spanning decades, including my small one.

They should be looked at, not ignored or ridiculed all the time. After all, we only need a single one to be true and it will be the biggest discovery humanity has made, should it turn out to be ET or something even stranger. Too bad the hoaxers, nutters, charlatans and the mythology that has spawned in its wake have turned most of this subject into such a joke...

Finland! Cool. Always interesting to hear from a different perspective. No, I'm not ridiculing them or dismissing them out of hand, and I do pay attention to some of the more interesting ones.

Agreed it would be humanity's greatest discovery which is why I'm saying the evidence of it would have to something incontrovertible. We've had decades of eyewitness testimony and if that were going to constitute proof by itself it would have already.
 
Just speculating but has anyone tought that maybe the "alien beings" people allegedly keep seeing are not real evolved beings, but some sort of avatars or perhaps bred or constructed proxies made by the true aliens, which may be post biological or too strange, and theyre made for the sake of these landing scenarios and making contact more bearable for us? Maybe theyre testing the waters this way?
Sure it's possible; that idea gets bandied about sometimes. The way people describe the hive-like behavior of "the greys" makes them sound like biological robots of some kind. But since those reports also commonly feature telepathy, maybe that's just how beings act when they're basically joined at the mental level.

Honestly I like to confine my speculations to the physics of AAV propulsion, partly because the radar-visual cases prove that these craft are physical devices and not something intangible, and partly because their performance capabilities fit our own theoretical predictions for gravitational field propulsion so perfectly - and I think figuring out how to replicate that technology could save global civilization as we know it so it's a very worthy pursuit.

On the other hand, all of the evidence regarding alien beings is strictly anecdotal, and the sensationalism around the topic makes it very unpalatable. Really the only case that strikes me as a deeply compelling account involving alien beings, is the Zimbabwe Ariel School account: when I hear those kids describing their experiences it rings 100% true to me. And the message they received during their encounter about climate change and global environmental calamity seems even more chillingly prescient today that it seemed back then.

Some alledged aliens are too human looking IMO, like the "nordics", hard to think such being would evolve naturally and separate to such a similar body. Unless theyre just compeletely made up.

Of course if theyre some sort of avatars, then why use the others at all, why not just portray urself human all the time?
The ETH favors a model involving many species from many civilizations visiting our planet on occasion, and that seems to fit the data best. So I think it['s unwise to refer to "them" as if we're talking about one species with one set of motives for coming here.

Eyewitness testimony and theory do not constitute proof that we have been visited by extraterrestrial civilizations, it's a basis for thinking that it might be happening. That could just as easily be applied to other things that you might not so readily accept.
If anybody in the public sector had "proof" that we're being visited by extraterrestrial civilizations, I don't think we'd be having these kinds of debates in the first place. But I think that what we do have constitutes a very compelling and logical argument.

And I think that the recent revelations regarding the Nimitz incidents prove a key point here: the military has plenty of hard proof, and they're withholding it from the public. They have a radar net that reaches far beyond our atmosphere so they have lots of radar data of these things operating in Earth proximity, and by all indications the military has recovered materials which remain classified, and we know for a fact that they have the full gun camera footage from multiple intercept missions - of which we've only seen very brief and empirically worthless clips....obviously they have the rest of that footage, and it's logical to conclude that they're withholding the rest of that footage because it's of significance intelligence value.

Which highlights the point that I'm always making: only the military has the technology to prove the existence of AAVs/UFOs - they have the radar systems and the jet interceptors equipped with $3M gun cameras and the material retrieval teams to collect all the evidence that a scientist would ever need to conclude "yes, we're occasionally being visited by nonterrestrial technological devices." Us plebes out here in the public sector have no access to that kind of data. That's why it remains "unproven" to us. It's not unproven to them. And that's not even me just stating the obvious - we now know that the Pentagon had a program that reached that conclusion because we've heard it from the former Director of that program, and we've seen the unclassified report that says it.

So at this point we have say with extremely high confidence that the defense department has the proof that validates the ETH, and they're deliberately keeping that proof from the public. I'm shocked that more people aren't infuriated about that.

Its still intresting and more than what SETI has found so far, namely nothing. We have those testimonies and reports from most countries spanning decades, including my small one.

They should be looked at, not ignored or ridiculed all the time. After all, we only need a single one to be true and it will be the biggest discovery humanity has made, should it turn out to be ET or something even stranger. Too bad the hoaxers, nutters, charlatans and the mythology that has spawned in its wake have turned most of this subject into such a joke...
It looks to me like the military decided early on to hide the truth from the public, and they employed ridicule and denial to do it - the typical "dive and conquer" strategy that we're only supposed to use against our adversaries: they divide us by telling us that our friends, family and neighbors who have seen a truly anomalous object in the sky, are all liars and nutters, and promoting that narrative through their army of sycophants who control the press. Over time this PsyOp against the public, with the help of some despicable attention-seeking hoaxers, acquired a life of its own and generated the circus of BS that now seems to dominate the subject. The military created a vacuum of knowledge, and the charlatans stepped in to fill that vacuum. That's how I see it anyway

Agreed it would be humanity's greatest discovery which is why I'm saying the evidence of it would have to something incontrovertible. We've had decades of eyewitness testimony and if that were going to constitute proof by itself it would have already.
My point is simple: given the elusive behavior of these craft, all avenues to incontrovertible evidence are owned by the military, and they're not sharing - so until one or both of those things changes, it hard to imagine how we'll ever see any incontrovertible evidence out here in the public sector. Perhaps the ADAM Project got lucky; that's the only hope that I can see right now. But even an exotic material can be questioned on various grounds, so people who don't want to believe it will still have an "out."
 
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CasualBystander

Celestial
These craft tend to exhibit erratic and extreme accelerations - so extreme in fact that a targeting lock is impossible. No matter how fast your projectile is, such maneuvers totally defeat such an approach.

I have a theory that the erratic maneuvers are the alien equivalent of the kids joyriding the family SUV.

Don't believe the average UFO behaves like that.
 
On the other hand, all of the evidence regarding alien beings is strictly anecdotal, and the sensationalism around the topic makes it very unpalatable. Really the only case that strikes me as a deeply compelling account involving alien beings, is the Zimbabwe Ariel School account: when I hear those kids describing their experiences it rings 100% true to me. And the message they received during their encounter about climate change and global environmental calamity seems even more chillingly prescient today that it seemed back then.

Zimbabwe incident is an intresting one. Whats also intresting is that a lot of alledged abductees and contactees talk about some coming "catastrophy" scenarios. Including Kevin Day recently from the Nimitz incident, he said something like hes had visions or something... I dont know, the Nimitz case could have just messed with his mind.

Of course any message any aliens allegedly bring cant really be confirmed, so i take em with a grain of salt.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Whats also intresting is that a lot of alledged abductees and contactees talk about some coming "catastrophy" scenarios.

This is endemic to the abduction phenomenon. Goes back quite a ways and the types of catastrophe have varied with whatever our concerns were at the moment.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
This is endemic to the abduction phenomenon. Goes back quite a ways and the types of catastrophe have varied with whatever our concerns were at the moment.

As most people who have been around for a while know, since WWII no real catastrophes have happened.

None of the predicted catastrophes now or in the past have come true or even seem plausible.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
As most people who have been around for a while know, since WWII no real catastrophes have happened.

None of the predicted catastrophes now or in the past have come true or even seem plausible.

Abductees tend to relay messages about whatever the zeitgeist at the moment is. Worries about nuclear war were very real and we probably dodged an existential bullet on that one. Nowhere in recorded history have we had the ability to cause our own extinction. Plagues excepted because we didn't really understand the causes.

Now it's about how we treat the planet, etc. I'm going to go have some tasty GMO modified something for dinner and maybe burn some high octane leaded fossil fuel tomorrow for fun ...........
 

Kchoo

At Peace.
Abductees tend to relay messages about whatever the zeitgeist at the moment is. Worries about nuclear war were very real and we probably dodged an existential bullet on that one. Nowhere in recorded history have we had the ability to cause our own extinction. Plagues excepted because we didn't really understand the causes.

Now it's about how we treat the planet, etc. I'm going to go have some tasty GMO modified something for dinner and maybe burn some high octane leaded fossil fuel tomorrow for fun ...........
Im my case, they did remind me of Hiroshima and expressed concerns about the long term damage that setting off so many hundreds of nuke test has caused.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
Abductees tend to relay messages about whatever the zeitgeist at the moment is. Worries about nuclear war were very real and we probably dodged an existential bullet on that one. Nowhere in recorded history have we had the ability to cause our own extinction. Plagues excepted because we didn't really understand the causes.

Now it's about how we treat the planet, etc. I'm going to go have some tasty GMO modified something for dinner and maybe burn some high octane leaded fossil fuel tomorrow for fun ...........

I burn mid-octane fuel and eat tasty GMO as well. Can't get leaded gas in the US anymore (catalytic converter poison) but it was easier on the engine.

If you really wanted to boost mileage the emissions controls are a good place to start.
 

pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
I burn mid-octane fuel and eat tasty GMO as well. Can't get leaded gas in the US anymore (catalytic converter poison) but it was easier on the engine.

If you really wanted to boost mileage the emissions controls are a good place to start.

1969 high compression small block. None of that choke-the-pipe nonsense. Got me some nasty Torco additive I thought I might try. Lead meant plugs got nasty after maybe 20K miles. Now they last .... forever. Don't miss that really. Smells good but makes me blink funny.

Might be better to move this stuff to the Lounge though.
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Im my case, they did remind me of Hiroshima and expressed concerns about the long term damage that setting off so many hundreds of nuke test has caused.

No idea. Maybe you would like to open another thread and share? If you have and I've missed it, how about a link.

Dulce Base by Greg Valdez might be a good read, related to nuclear testing as well as nuts & bolts weird tech that could be flying around, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayers
 
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Kchoo

At Peace.
No idea. Maybe you would like to open another thread and share? If you have and I've missed it, how about a link.

Dulce Base by Greg Valdez might be a good read, related to all that and nuts & bolts odd tech that could be flying around, courtesy of the taxpayers
I will do a blurb of only what I experienced as it happened with no other exploratives, and when t is ready I will provide a link.
 
I have a theory that the erratic maneuvers are the alien equivalent of the kids joyriding the family SUV.

Don't believe the average UFO behaves like that.
Radical maneuvers that defy Newton's first and third laws of motion are probably the most consistent defining feature of AAV sightings, so I dispute that assessment. Such maneuvers also happen to be the ideal defensive solution against an attack from the warmongering primitives on this planet, so I don't think it's accidental or "joy riding" behavior: rather I think that it's consummately practical and intelligent.

This is endemic to the abduction phenomenon. Goes back quite a ways and the types of catastrophe have varied with whatever our concerns were at the moment.
Abductees tend to relay messages about whatever the zeitgeist at the moment is.
I think that's true of fake alien contact stories. I don't know if it's true of more credible accounts because it's basically impossible to know if someone's telling a fish tale or not: how could anyone parse that data set? Humanoidlord opts to simply believe every story that anyone ever tells, and he assumes that the crazier the story, the more likely it is to be true...obviously that's an insane and totally backwards methodology. Others dismiss them all because none of those stories seem to have any empirical data to back them up; I'm sympathetic to that approach, but it seems overly simplistic. But I don't see a reasonable middle-ground approach.

The Ariel School incident happened in 1994 - I don't remember climate crisis being a topic of interest back then. It only seems to conform to our concerns today because climate catastrophe is actually happening and we're keenly aware of it now (well, those people who mind scientific findings are aware of it anyway, and it's a big public debate today - although it wasn't a popular issue 25 years ago). I also don't think that those kids were lying; I don't know how anyone can see their interviews and brush them off as liars or hoaxers.

As most people who have been around for a while know, since WWII no real catastrophes have happened.

None of the predicted catastrophes now or in the past have come true or even seem plausible.
The Cold War presented a very plausible risk of thermonuclear war with Russia, and many of the alleged contact reports involved messages about the risk of annihilation, so that was one very plausible issue that came up a lot. Things could have easily gone south and resulted in a nuclear war. And thanks to the brainwashed Democrats who are pushing the fake new Red Scare narrative, it could escalate all over again.

And the climate change issue is very real and very frightening. The Zimbabwe case brought that up years before the public started to worry about it. So that's another very credible threat that has been connected to UFO contact reports.

I don't recall any implausible predictions of catastrophe, other than the fake stories promoted by obvious hoaxers and frauds, and nutters like the Heaven's Gate cult.

But there's that problem again - how do we parse the fake contact stories from any legit ones? We can't. But some are clearly hoaxes and frauds - we all know this. So we can't lump those stories in with more credible accounts, and the Zimbabwe case is a credible incident imo.

Im my case, they did remind me of Hiroshima and expressed concerns about the long term damage that setting off so many hundreds of nuke test has caused.
I think that's a very real concern: god only knows how many instances of cancer were caused by belching that much radioactive material into the ecosystem. And look at the hellish spread of the Fukashima radioactive material, and the fallout from the Chernobyl incident. The nuclear age has been a scourge upon humanity. I only hope that we'll survive long enough to achieve fusion so nuclear technology isn't a completely pointless disaster for our civilization and life on this planet.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
Radical maneuvers that defy Newton's first and third laws of motion are probably the most consistent defining feature of AAV sightings, so I dispute that assessment. Such maneuvers also happen to be the ideal defensive solution against an attack from the warmongering primitives on this planet, so I don't think it's accidental or "joy riding" behavior: rather I think that it's consummately practical and intelligent.
Kentucky Train Collision with Disk UFO, 2002-UFO Casebook Files

What about the reports of UFOs running into trains and such and other bad driving???

Joyriding kids I tell you.
 
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