Is reverse engineering really that difficult?

Discussion in 'Science, Tech, & Space Exploration' started by ChrisIB, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. ChrisIB

    ChrisIB Honorable

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    Often we are given the analogy of a smart phone and a tribe in the jungle with the suggestion of an almost impossible task.
    I disagree, atoms are atoms and advances in nano tech suggest much of it could be done quickly.
    Magnetic metamaterial amplifies MRI for clearer images in less time
    Nor do I think the TTSA have such, videos perhaps but the military and commercial value of metamaterial would be so high it seems inconceivable it would remain in public hands.
    At the very least, they will have been examined and found to be junk.

    I also disagree that this apparent level of acknowledgement indicates several nations have succeeded in reverse engineering stuff, making mute the need for secrecy.

    Maybe the TTSA thing is less about disclosure than an increasing visibility of UAVs.
    Landing on the White House lawn may not be how it is done.
    Perhaps UAVs are used to gradually increase awareness and investigation?
     
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  2. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    I do not think reverse engineering alien material or technology would be too difficult once we understand the physics behind the technology, once that is understood then we could adapt that technology or material to our uses...We still may not be able to duplicate the material though, just make use of what we have found...

    ...
     
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  3. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    When I first took the engineering job I currently work, there was one machine I had never been exposed to, but many of the individual functions and components of that machinery I was very familiar with...This machinery also needed a lot of work, it had not been taken care of very well and the owner of the company asked me to personally handle it and get the machinery back to its original operating state...One technician who overheard the owner's conversation with me came to me after that discussion and said that if I needed his assistance he would jump in and help, he said he was one who knew that machine fairly well...Okay, well I didn't ask for his help, nor did I need to read any documentation on this machinery, basically I just brought my tools to the equipment and began servicing it completely...It needed a lot of work too...In less than a week I had it fully serviced and back to its normal operating state, the weeks that followed, I heard all sorts of comments and praise from the other engineers and operators...They never saw that piece of equipment run so efficiently and precise and with the speed they never could achieve before...Another quick example, three technicians and an engineer were having issues with a automated press line, six hours they were troubleshooting the problem and could not find out what was wrong with the equipment...The manager of that facility proceeded to call me on the phone and asked me to come over to that building and have a look at that machinery, they were losing valuable production time...Twenty minutes I isolated the problem and got the line back in operation...

    My point is that we have some very intelligent people in this world who could probably figure out how to alien technology works and how to use it, probably even could figure out how to repair it if its damaged, even if we didn't have the know how or technology to reproduce it...I think hypothetically we could even figure out how to reproduce alien technology but without having a means to carry out that task, we could have the knowledge of how to reverse engineer alien tech even if our technological abilities were not advanced enough yet to carry out that procedure...

    ...
     
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  4. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Celestial

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    IMHO it is more a question of money, than than our ability to figure it out. Business ppl are very risk averse, they wouldn't spend a penny on something uncertain. Plant's owner simply balanced in his head how much it will cost him to buy new machine vs how much will he pay you vs how much money he can make if machine was working. That type of a thinking. It was pretty safe bet that his safest bet was to let you have a go before going and buying a new one.

    Situation is completely reversed with UFOs. It's not such a safe bet and no decision maker wants to take the risk because he would end up looking as a fool. So no money is available for time and tools.

    Additionally, decision makers are usually not technical, so risk loos much higher than actually is.

    I am working on reverse engineering UFO propulsion right now, pretty tried & tested apporoach and I shamesly asked for money and just been politely ignored each time.
     
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  5. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Interesting analogy (and familiar role) but I am not sure how well it applies. Even knowing that something can be done is an advantage but it would have to be recognized first. You already knew what the machine was supposed to do and had the correct tools and skills to apply.

    While time traveling if I drop my faithful old mechanical Timex wristwatch chances are it would be recognized - say in ancient Greece near wherever the Antikythera mechanism was created. Hell, maybe that explains it :)
    They would marvel at the materials and compact design they couldn't recreate, but they would know what it does. I drop my Apple Watch in the same place and somebody just has a nice piece of weird jewelry that used to light up.
     
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  6. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Something else that just occurred to me. The mindset of whoever created whatever it is you're trying to reverse engineer will have some bearing.

    Listened to an interview recently regarding North Korean intentions and capabilities. Less than half of some of their ICBMs actually work. We look at it as engineering with a lousy success rate and would change it accordingly. They look at it as 'almost half of them worked !!' and their chances of doing something really stupid with them are much improved.

    To us an LGM-30G Minuteman III might equate to a Hwasong-14 KN-20 but if we didn't know what either one did we might draw different conclusions by peering at their guts.
     
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  7. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Celestial

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    We know physics so well that we would just need a working piece of that machinery in its working environment :) and we would suss it out on the spot. It would cost few million dollars, but it would create billion dollar industry, so balance of situation is on positive side.

    UFO can not be anything but a device that works on Quantum Mechanics level and we know QM so well that we can deconstruct anything. Weather we could practically replicate it is a different question.

    I once run this thought experiment half for fun, half to discover a new angle. Lets say one was an unusual aboriginal from Papua New Guinea island who has a degree in physics, but he never had seen a car. Would he be able to reverse engineer the car the first time an explorer from outside world drives into his village, without lifting a bonnet?

    I toyed with all the external effects that a car produced, like sounds, heat, vibration, movement etc. and I was able to get to about 90% close to how actually work. Admittedly not 100%. But somebody else would maybe fair better. External effects that car produces were telling me that there is something hot inside that is very massive and that rotates. Now would one be able to safely deduce that that hot, massive object is car engine, is unlikely. Even more unlikely would be to deduce that that engine had carburetor, pistons, crank shaft etc. But as guess it was 100% in a right direction.

    By that same method we can broadly deduce what is the UFO's working principle and indeed, there is a consensus among engineers and scientists about EM effects UFOs produce. Bigger problem is that we don't allow to ourselves to believe that UFOs are real. So we can't even make the first step, just because of the peer pressure. Peer pressure is PITA, excuse my French. Effectively stupid are blocking smart. More on that some other time.

    By the way, as a curiosity fact, diesel engine was actually invented in Papua New Guinea. An anthropologist from Germany was studying life of tribesman and he noticed a curious way they made fire, even when it was raining. They would make a piston from a hollow bamboo stem and put some dry grass into it. Than when they wanted fire they would hit the piston on a rock and rise of pressure and temperature would fire up the grass. When scientist went back to Germany he gave a lecture about it, which was attended by engineer called Diesel. Rest is history.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  8. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    The Hardware and software aspects would be vastly different challenges. When anyone thinks reverse engineering they always think, "The engine of the craft" But to be blunt, none of that will do much good unless we are able to figure out their software, How do entities run these crafts that are able to turn on a dime in the earth's atmosphere without some kind of system computing trajectories and accelerations and gravitational forces? They don't and can't.

    When it comes to the software aspect. I've heard a lot about craft, but in even the rarest cases of reports of downed craft I've never heard anyone mention, Oh yeah, there was this System onboard a lot like a computer. That's not to say that some alien races computers or methods of computing wouldn't be different than ours, so different that we wouldn't even recognize it if we saw it. However, This is something, We would have to Not only find But figure out how it works and develop an understanding of its operating system.

    The question, Why couldn't we just use our own computers and create our own to control these drives? I assume we could, but to do that, We would have to salvage one and reverse engineer it and understand what it does and how it functions.

    I very much have an interest in cases of abduction where tools and instruments and even monitors are described. Language and even text. My problem is simple When it comes to cases studied, We lack a lot of important information.

    To simplify it, here is what people are interested in.

    1 The shiny flying craft.

    2 The beings inside them.

    I promise, The whole situation is much more intricate than that, And we need more information. You can build cars and trucks all day long, but if you don't develop an understanding of the car's systems and needs, How are you going to deliver the right amount of electricity to the spark plugs? how are you going to regulate its air intake? How are you going to Make a truck stop when you need it too if you are an alien being and you reverse engineered one of our trucks, With no understanding of that truck beyond, It had an engine and people drive them?

    We need more information than what we have. And To this degree, I say, No, Unless there is a metric shit-ton of information that they have, That we don't, Then We can focus on the hardware aspect of the craft. But how do we truly know what it's capable of or how to properly use the thing? we wouldn't and therefore we would not be able to reproduce the thing. We could make a shoddy barely functional copy at best. at worst we would have catastrophic accidents and people would die because some part of the engine wasn't shielded properly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  9. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Celestial

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    I completely disagree. Question of software is completely marginal. Although software inside machines is ubiquitous nowadays, first machines we got like cars and aeroplanes never used software for tens of years.

    We don't understand the most basic principle of how they work and once that's understood everything else is easy.
     
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  10. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Can't say I agree with you here man, An organic being couldn't manipulate machinery that travels faster than or close to the speed of light without technology. it's just not possible to manipulate this advanced technology without an understanding of how it operates. These aren't bi plains with simple functioning propeller engines here. This isn't pre-industrial revolution era machines. There is a computed aspect of how these machines function. We don't hurl satellites into orbit without software that both allows us ways to determine the information and ways to control it. These things and what they are reported to do in the air, This isn't being achieved by a pully system or steam engines here man.

    unless you are suggesting these crafts are controlled by a joystick. Then they have software that operates them.
    These things in the air, Are not anything like the "First machines" These are advanced technology. We are missing an important aspect of how any "Vehicle" would operate in a 4-dimensional space, And yes, If these things approach anything close to the speed of light then they have to account for time, So four dimensions must be accurately accounted for, At nearly the speed of light. No software you say? No computer of any kind? Nah..

    I think not, man... I think not.

    At near the speed of light, You encounter a massive object you need to avoid being smashed into, be it an asteroid or a mountain. Are your faster than physically possible reflexes going to achieve this for you? Did you see the object before the light could reflect off it into your eye and be processed by your brain? You aren't describing technology you are describing magic man. I don't agree with "Magic" it's not science.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  11. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    I'm just saying, You say there are no operating systems, no computers, I just can't invest in that. How could something so technologically advanced not possess intricate systems that operate all its various functions? That concept is basic engineering. you "NEED. MUST HAVE" an operating system to maintain all these different functions. It's just possible otherwise man.

    I will further dive into this by saying, We could create an operating system, I fully believe that, but if we don't understand theirs, Then we will have missed a lot of vital information, about the craft and its functions. Things that we could not anticipate for.
     
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  12. Kchoo

    Kchoo At Peace.

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    Is reverse engineering really that difficult?
    Only if you are overlooking something because you do not have it in your paradigm or frame of references.

    So, yes, it could be very difficult, but show it to enough people, someone will probably try the right combination.

    Hopefully, they will record what they did and be able to share and repeat it.
     
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  13. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Celestial

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    There is another, somewhat subtle, problem with reverse engineering.

    Every scientist has his own pet theory, to which he is passionately attached. Some of these theories are down to earth, but some are completely wild and unwieldy. Now you put together say a team of 5 scientists, they'll all start polling away towards their pet theory and no work would get done.
     
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  14. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    I can see that as a distinct possibility, of UAPs operating without any AI or software as we know it but more directly controlled by the operator(s), perhaps telepathically or physical control...

    ...
     
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  15. SOUL-DRIFTER

    SOUL-DRIFTER Life Long Researcher

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    Reverse engineering technology of advanced alien origin may or may not be difficult depends on the nature of the technology involved and NOT just it being alien.
    Some technology used off world(off their own world) may be designed to self destruct when tampered with by unfamiliar hands. Others may be partially altered or destroyed and much useful knowledge about the object may be lost and or render what is left to learn about inaccurate or useless. Some alien technology is sufficiently advanced that any of these things could happen along with a number of others that could be harmful or fatal to the people involved as well. And then there are the other kind only a few hundreds of years ahead of ours and that might much safer and easier to reverse engineer. Some technology is what I think of as multi-interdimentional. In other words a device that exists in one dimension while other working parts to it exist in another, yet the device functions as a whole. This allows for functions that would otherwise be impossible.
     
  16. Dejan Corovic

    Dejan Corovic Celestial

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    I am not saying they don't need software. I am saying one first needs to know the basic working principle. Software is just an improvement, not necessity.
     
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  17. k

    k Honorable

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    I remember how one day I saw a graphic interface of one of the software of aliens. There was a model of aliens skeleton in black color. The background was honey-color circular gradient. At the beginning i thought that it is image of spider, but then I saw orifices of sacral region of spine without pelvic bone. The sacral region of spine seemed a little narrow to me. Ribs almost fit within the circle. The lower ribs weren't so spreading like human have. The limbs were positioned in form of letter "X". Wrists and feets were not visible. The whole spine seemed a little elongated.
    When alien reflected about something and his eyes looked to the lower left corner I saw the picture more clearly.
    Then I saw pulsating vessels, and then I started to strangle myself.
     
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  18. k

    k Honorable

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    Wow! That is who is not threatened with self-destruction!
     
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  19. Shadowprophet

    Shadowprophet Truthiness

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    Hmm, maybe, I'm not seeing this under the right circumstances. I fully believe they would need software, But, The whole software issue is from the point of view of modern technology. Perhaps their technology is so different from what we do, that it operates on different principals, perhaps everything is automated, We "us humans" would need software for our machines, But, since we don't know exactly how it truly functions, I will relent that the software call is premature. plus it's possible there is some hardware solution to the software problem too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019

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