The Cold War, USOs, & the K-219 Submarine Incident

Discussion in 'UFOs & Sightings' started by nivek, Sep 29, 2021.

  1. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    The Cold War, USOs, and the Mystery of the K-219 Submarine Incident

    In October of 1986, the Soviet Navaga-class ballistic missile submarine K-219 was prowling through the waters of the North Atlantic, about 1,090 kilometers (680 mi) northeast of Bermuda, on a routine nuclear deterrence patrol. At the time the Cold War was in full swing, and this was pretty normal procedure for the era, basically lurking about to let the enemy know you were there, and since the K-219 was equipped with between 32 to 48 nuclear warheads and 16 R-27U liquid-fuel missiles, you can be sure that the Americans got the message loud and clear. At around 0530 Moscow time, seawater began inexplicably leaking into missile silo six, and not long after this chaos would erupt aboard the K-219 and turn into a great mystery that has become part of the lore of the Bermuda Triangle.

    As the leak continued, efforts were made to fix the situation, the alarm was sounded, and measures were made, which included hermetically sealing all compartments. However, it was too late. At 0538, an explosion occurred in missile tube No. 6, killing two men outright and a third when toxic fumes suffocated him, and it also ejected the missile and its warheads into the sea. Another man died while trying to shut off the submarine’s engine reactor, which had oddly not turned off automatically, and the disaster would in the end claim five lives. K-219 was able to limp to the surface, where it was found that the side of the vessel had a deep groove, as if it had struck something underwater, and K-219’s Captain Second Rank Igor Britanov believed that it could have been the reason for the leak that had led to the explosion. The only problem was, they were in the middle of nowhere, and had not received any collision alarm, so what was going on here? The K-219’s problems only continued from there.

    [​IMG]
    K-219

    Considering that the sub was basically dead in the water, it was towed by a Soviet freighter back towards their home port of Gadzhiyevo, a full 7,000 kilometers (4,300 mi) away, but the tow line broke, and the order was given to abandon ship. The surviving crew were rescued and the metal behemoth sank down to the bottom of the Hatteras Abyssal Plain, coming to rest at a depth of about 6,000 m (18,000 ft) in dark, freezing waters and taking its full payload of nuclear warheads with it. Oddly, when an operation was later launched to investigate the wreck, it was found that all of the warheads were nowhere to be found and the silo hatches were dangling open. Considering the loss of life, the sub, and the warheads, it was a pretty big deal, and there were immediately accusations flying as to what had caused the leak and explosion.

    The Soviets were very quick to lay the blame on the Americans. Their official stance was that the K-219 had collided with the American submarine USS Augusta, which was operating in the same general region at the time. However, both the captain of the USS Augusta and the captain of the K-219 denied this, and it was also found that the American sub was nowhere near them at the time of the incident. In fact, no U.S. sub had been anywhere near them, and no American vessel had come in for repairs for any such underwater collision. So what had caused that gash on the sub? How had there been a leak in the silo, where such a thing should have been impossible? The Soviets would continue to hang onto the theory that it had to have been a collision with an American submarine, and they fully charged Britanov with negligence, sabotage, and treason, although these charges were eventually dismissed. For years the incident aboard the K-219 was a mystery often debated and discussed, and considering its proximity to the infamous Bermuda Triangle at the time, you can be sure that of course some began turning to speculation taking us into the world of the weird.

    [​IMG]

    The main idea here is that it was, well, aliens. There would be numerous uncorroborated and unverified claims that subs and other vessels in the area had seen mysterious lights zipping about underwater, often called Unidentified Submerged Objects, or USOs, as well as a strange low frequency sound picked up on equipment that sounded like a quacking duck or a low croaking. Appropriately called “Quakers,” these sounds have been speculated as being anything from misidentified whale song, to some sort of top-secret sonar system, to some geological phenomenon, to alien transmissions, and apparently the K-219 picked up these sounds as well shortly before its accident. In 2010, a former Russian naval officer, a Captain Nikolai Tushin, came forward with a new piece of testimony in the incident.

    According to him, at the time of the incident, Tushin was part of a group of specialists of the Soviet Navy tasked with the admission of nuclear submarines built in Severodvinsk at Sevmash to the fleet, and so he had his finger on the pulse of pretty much everything that happened with the submarines, including every accident and incident. According to him, the K-219 had picked up not only one of the unidentified Quaker noises, but had also tracked a mysterious moving underwater object on its radar. He had allegedly kept this information classified for decades, but came forward with it when he figured that there would be no repercussions. He would speak to Russian researcher Dmitry Sudakov, who would say of all of this on the site Pravda:

    What was going on here? Is there any truth to this at all? As of now, the whole incident has been sort of brushed over and forgotten, with many ideas put forward. Was this just a technical malfunction, a collision with an American sub, sabotage, or something else, perhaps something more otherworldly? By the way, where did the nukes go? Do you have them? I know I don’t, but I sure wish I knew who did. It is a rather obscure account from the Cold War era to be sure, and the answers have not been coming in. Perhaps time will tell.

    .
     
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  2. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Been interested in Cold War submarine activities recently.

    March 1967 the Golf II class Soviet missile submarine K-129 in a position well outside of its assigned patrol area and only roughly 400 miles northwest of Pearl Harbor attempted to launch a missile with a one megaton nuclear warhead at Honolulu. Only the weapons' fail safe prevented catastrophe and destroyed the boat. Obviously, there's a lot more to that story. I had heard of the Glomar Explorer and Howard Hughes but after reading Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage it was an eye opener to put it mildly.

    Imagine a series of top secret projects that required Apollo-level resources - the best minds, engineering and innovation we have to offer working in secret. In some cases even the President was not fully briefed on what was happening and very often the majority of the participants themselves were only aware of certain aspects of their work, which may not even be used for the purpose they were told. Imagine these projects created technical capabilities so far in advance of their contemporaries it was quite literally beyond belief in several cases, including K-129. Like a troika doll, secrets nested within secrets. Oh, and imagine a series of top secret projects with next generation technical capabilities that remains largely secret to this day - over 70 years. Only rumors and bits and pieces come out over time. Blind Man's Bluff is exactly that

    I picked up The Silent War: The Cold War Battle Beneath the Sea by John Pina Craven and if you want to know how this stuff works, read the book. He's necessarily vague about detail and it is possible to see his ego bleeding through quite a bit, but if he comes across that way he has a good reason. The Chief Scientist of the Special Projects division was aware of exactly what was on the ocean floor that was of national interest sixty years ago - oh, and he didn't think the Bermuda Triangle was anything special. He's a central figure in the story and his book reads in a way similar to John B Alexander's UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities in that says some very similar things about how the government works.

    As for K-219 I think this is a conglomeration of other stories and incidents.

    Here's a few good quotes I wanted to share. Read these and tell me what you think about Admiral Wilson, Eric Davis and maybe Lue Elizondo

    “Every project must have a cover project that must be true. Thus is formed a hierarchy of projects, with one or more Special Intelligence projects at the top of the pyramid. Most participants in a cover project do not know that it is a cover project. One or more individuals who are cleared for both projects make the link between Special Intelligence projects and their covers. The chain proceeds all the way down to unclassified projects. Thus, I was told, the DSSP could serve as the host for projects at every level with a structure that deflected penetration anywhere. If someone stumbled on information to which he was not privy, he was briefed at the lowest level of security for which he was cleared and warned against further release of that material. Those who understood the system appreciated the fact that the project they were working on was real and significant but at the same time might be a cover for a project whose mission was more sensitive. You would never know whether you had penetrated the “seventh veil” except by the length of the clearance list. If it was ten or less, you could be fairly certain that the information gleaned would be transmitted only to the admiral or general who was the director of the DIA, who, in turn, would provide the information to the President's National Security Adviser and finally to the President. These and other techniques for preserving security were discussed in our hour-long meeting in the vault, after which I was duly cautioned on the damage to national security and the threat to the lives of those involved should any breach occur. I was then placed under written oaths and briefed on the mission that required the development of a Special Intelligence project or projects in which I would play a major role in initiation and management.

    — The Silent War: The Cold War Battle Beneath the Sea by John Pina Craven

    The Silent War: The Cold War Battle Beneath the Sea



    “The activities of the DIA are highly compartmentalized. Most activities are categorized as Special Intelligence projects. Even the code name of each project is highly classified. A list of individuals with a need to know is designated for each project. The list is as short as possible. Information acquired under the program is kept in tightly guarded security spaces and nothing may be removed except when transferred to another secure facility. In that event, material is transported in a locked briefcase shackled to guards who have no knowledge of what they are carrying. Participants can tell no one, not even their families or closest”


    — The Silent War: The Cold War Battle Beneath the Sea by John Pina Craven

    The Silent War: The Cold War Battle Beneath the Sea



    “large quantities of coffee sketching out rough designs and schedules associated with these designs. We decided to begin with the Deep Submergence Rescue Vehicle, which regardless of design and complexity could not be deployed earlier than 1970. We phased the design and development of the Deep Submergence Search Vehicle in a way that would bring it on line about two years after the DSRV. We deferred consideration of the Large Object Salvage System until the first two programs were underway. In the end, DSRV was mother to quite a brood—and some of her chicks were hatched before she was fully operational. This is a classic example of the secret intelligence paradigm; the cover (DSRV) is real and it produces covert progeny.”


    — The Silent War: The Cold War Battle Beneath the Sea by John Pina Craven

    The Silent War: The Cold War Battle Beneath the Sea





     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  3. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I think there's some meat on the bone here kids.

    Guess where the Navy tested quite a bit of it's secret gear for the Man-in-the Sea program and Sealab(s)? You know, the ones that allow a diver to descend to unbelievably extreme depths as in, wherever the hell they want, and do secret sneaky s**t.

    Have to go back and check but I am pretty sure that when they brought back the entire K-129, not just part of it as had been reported for cover story, they had to examine it's highly irradiated wreck in a place that was very, very quiet and under control. Guess where all that was?

    San Clemente Island.

    And here we are all these years later with the Navy and weird stuff off of ..... San Clemente Island. So, either ET is very curious about our toy box OR, well, you go ahead and fill in the rest ......
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  4. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I misread what was written. Lockheed's original Skunkworks was actually only 40 miles from San Clemente. In this case the Navy has or had skunk works-like advanced development labs near San Francisco, which in naval terms ain't that far away either.

    From Long Beach Harbor the dismantled submarine had also been transported to a secured building on this large tract of land. The site was hidden on a narrow canal by the swampy wilderness of Bair Island, fifteen miles south of San Francisco. This area in South San Francisco Bay was home to nautical versions of Lockheed’s skunk works, the secret aviation projects that developed some of the world’s most futuristic combat and spy aircraft. Lockheed and other defense contractors had facilities all around the south bay and its navigable inlets, many of the facilities dating back to World War II. The crated Soviet submarine was probably taken to one of the most secret of all these facilities, located east of U.S. Highway 101, on a dredged canal fed by Redwood Creek. A dockside building, where the welding and dismantling work crews of the Glomar had been trained on a life-size model of the boat, was now used to house the recovered submarine. The highly radioactive parts had to be handled in a special facility equipped to screen leakage from radiation. The site is today a modern industrial park, but at the time, the hidden buildings were located on unnamed roads between such landmarks as Deepwater Slough and Smith Slough. Lockheed’s spy buildings at 100 and 200 Cardinal Way were demolished after the Cold War. However, before the site and buildings were decontaminated and cleared, they were used for another mysterious HMB-1 project. The barge, docked next to these buildings, served as the assembly facility and mother ship for the Navy’s stealthy Sea Shadow, an experimental, radar-evading vessel. A Lockheed worker who was witness to some of the follow-up operations in Project Jennifer said that when the parts of the submarine arrived at Redwood City, security went from “tight to air tight” at the building where the submarine was at least partially reassembled. “The Russian submarine” was stored in this sealed warehouse and the guards had orders to “shoot to kill,” the former Lockheed contract worker said. At the same time, the giant claw, which was still aboard the HMB-1, was dismantled, cut apart with electric torches, and completed destroyed. The eyewitness also said that occasionally workmen involved with the project were told not to come to work until after noon, and guards later said “important-looking suits” had visited the building on those mornings. Whether the entire Golf submarine—all 324 feet of it—was reassembled inside the warehouse is not known. During this phase of the operation, the warehouse floor looked much like a modern-day hangar used in a National Transportation Board probe. NTB investigators put together the pieces of crashed airliners on hangar floors to determine the cause of a crash. The purpose of reassembling the submarine was the same—to determine exactly what caused the explosion that sank the boat. The whereabouts of the recovered submarine parts are unknown. There are any number of large, highly secured buildings scattered around the bay at Navy facilities on Mare Island, Alameda, and at the abandoned, but still secured, Hunters Point Navy Shipyard, ten miles up the bay from the old Lockheed site. If K-129 was no longer needed for any intelligence or political value, it may also have simply been buried with the many other secrets of the Cold War. The nine-hundred-acre Hunters Point Shipyard is the site of a sixty-three-acre landfill, which is highly toxic from radiation waste dumped there over the years. The dumpsite could easily accommodate

    — Red Star Rogue: The Untold Story of a Soviet Submarine's Nuclear Strike Attempt on the U.S. by Kenneth Sewell, Clint Richmond
    Red Star Rogue: The Untold Story of a Soviet Submarine's Nuclear Strike Attempt on the U.S.
     
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  5. 1963

    1963 Noble

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    Hi Nivek, nice thread old mate. :Thumbsup: .... And well, the cold war never really ends does it. .... Nowadays the tension , oneupmanship and espionage is just as strong, or even stronger today than it was when I was a kid. ... Back then we were only really 'educated' by our government via the press that though there were a lot of 'undesirable countries' dotted around the globe, ... the 'really wicked bogeymen' came from east of the iron curtain a.k.a Russia. ... Today, since the collapse of the soviet union the 'evil Russians' seem to have been relegated to no more than a pesky little nuisance that can be largely controlled by economical sanctions, and the real international demons that have taken the mantle from the 'once mighty' Russians are now the 'new' economical titans [that are threatening the U.S' world domination] ... The Chinese!, and that is the reason for the switched focus of the cold war from the Soviets to the world's most populace and rapidly growing country, China. ... And as everything to do with these two behemothic superpowers is inevitably going to be shrouded in the utmost covert espionage and dirty underhanded tactics and unbelievably dangerous and retaliation prone operations , there is bound to be incidents either clumsy or intentional that occur in which either or neither side will be willing to admit any knowledge of. ... And that will in my opinion, be the source of 'many a mystery' to us, the common worker-drone layperson from all regions of the planet.
    ... And then there are the genuine mysterious occurrences that in all likelihood have nothing to do with any of that stuff!
    ... But to assess which incident in the pantheon of mysteries is in fact 'a real mystery' and not just something that is 'left as
    being a mystery for necessity' can quite frankly be termed as being "something of a hiding to nothing", because neither side will come clean. [that is the nature of surreptitious-power-struggles]
    I have heard of all of the above before and have [because i'm boring according to my kids. lol] and have various views on the "real-mysteries" and the "probable-cold-war-workings", but nevertheless ... always liked the "Quakers" since I first came across them many years ago. [there's a YT video with some old soviet sailors telling their stories somewhere knocking about] ... as to the lead story, The K-219 incident? ... well personally after much thought on this case over the years, I put this one in the 'genuine-mystery category' ... but that is just my opinion of course,... which is different to this similar latest incident that occurred just a week ago ...
    ... where there is an incident where this time there was a U.S submarine that was involved in a rather serious underwater "crash" into "a mysterious object" that apparently "no-one knows the identity of?"

    South China Sea: US submarine collides with unknown object - BBC News
    US must publish details of nuclear submarine incident — Chinese Foreign Ministry - Military & Defense - TASS

    ...though this is in my view almost certainly a product of the above mentioned 'power-struggle in the South China Sea' between super-powers and their minions ... the odds are that we will never know the truth of what actually occurred and so this incident will be talked about in years to come, and along with the inevitable 'ad-ons and general exaggerations' will go down as being one of those "real possibilities" ????

    U.S.S Connecticut.
    [​IMG]

    Crashed in to, or struck by U.S.O? ... doubt it. :Unsure: ..what about you ?


    Cheers Buddy.
     
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  6. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Two semi-related threads cooking and I'm ON about both of them.

    The Sino-Soviet love affair was brief and didn't end well. I scored a cool old Chinese Type 56 SKS out of their collaboration so for that I say 'thanks' to the godless commies, nice rifle. But we recognized their threat long before they touched off their first bomb in 1964. We fought them in Korea. By 1968 the Soviets would be ecstatic to pin the destruction of Honolulu on the Chinese and let them reap the whirlwind - as if anybody anywhere would benefit from a huge nuclear strike. That's what K-129 was doing when it's own fail safe sunk it

    You're right, it would be a mistake to think that all this came to an end when the Soviet Union fell. It didn't. What did happen is that it got less overtly aggressive; I believe hundreds if not thousands of lives have been lost in undeclared combat over the years. Planes hit and shoot at one another, so do naval vessels from time to time. Submarines will occasionally collide because like we've seen in the movies those things are huge, travel fast and get ridiculously close to one another at times. There are some who say the the USS Scorpion was deliberately sunk by Soviet naval activity - it's last mission is still classified and the cause of the loss publicly declared inconclusive. USS Scorpion (SSN-589) - Wikipedia

    On a side note, the search for the Titanic was a cover story. Ballard was looking for information from the wreck sites of Scorpion and USS Thresher and the Navy didn't think he'd actually find the damned ocean liner.
    Titanic Was Found During Secret Cold War Navy Mission


    The story about K-219 is IMO a conglomeration of several of these incidents.

    We've had deep - very, very deep - submergence capability and endurance for decades. In the process we've mapped the sea floor extensively and covered it with sensors of all description. The old saw about an aircraft carrier being 4 1/2 acres of sovereign US territory we can park anywhere we want is certainly true and it's also true that brings tremendous capabilities with it. But there it is, please target it. The Soviets literally gave up and changed tactics during the early Cold War because they saw that they could not begin to match the US technical qualitative advantage of the submarine fleet - and they weren't stupid about it either. Subs like the Connecticut are fast attack boats where the big Ohio class are 'boomers' or missile subs, much larger. Their real Red Octobers - the Typhoon missile subs - weren't meant to skulk off our coast because we could detect them the instant they left port. Instead they park them in the noisy pack ice where they get lost and literally just sit there waiting - an intelligent counter to us and an excellent deterrent. We put a decades long and largely classified national-level effort into developing the submarine fleet for the purposes of deterrence. The technical fallout from all that is largely still classified. We didn't just park all that and forget about it. The ability to creep invisibly anywhere in the world's vast oceans and do as we please is a strategic advantage that we aren't going to let fall by the wayside.

    Have a look at this. We've converted four of our boomers into special mission subs. Ohio Guided Missile Submarines Were Designed To Be Drone-Carrying Clandestine Command Centers Oh look, they're now multibillion dollar drone carriers now, among other things. I wonder how many tic tacs they can carry ?

    If we are reading about it publicly chances are it isn't new and whatever we are reading is hardly the whole story - or maybe even the real one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
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  7. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Something else I want to dig into. We know Stanton Friedman had a degree in nuclear engineering and that he had worked on a number of government project related to reactor powered aircraft. How could we forget? We've been reminded enough. Like Steven Greer, in his own words Friedman found UFOlogy to be a more lucrative career than lurching from one contract to the next. Wish I could have seen him, he made great presentations but as being an objective investigator - not so much.

    But to put it into context, ever wonder exactly what the hell they wanted to DO with a nuclear powered aircraft in the first place?

    I have to back and fish out the reference but it seems there was a truly apocalyptic idea of one of those things - an unshielded flying nuclear reactor - that would be let loose armed with nuclear weapons to loiter in a certain area for some period of time. I suppose you are making quite a statement to fire that insane thing up. Problem was, it vomited enormous doses of lethal radiation in the area it orbited and well, you have to really wonder what the hell they were thinking back then.

    The damned thing actually had a successful test on a stand and after the few minutes it ran will be entombed in lead for the next 50K years or so. A peek into the mindset back then. Makes me very glad cooler heads with thoughts of deterrence prevailed.
     
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  8. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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  9. wwkirk

    wwkirk Celestial

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    A number of the alternate, skeptical explanations that have been proposed are strongly plausible IF one or both of the following are true:

    1. The US Navy is lying when they say they don't know what the cited UAPs are.
    2. One of the other branches of the US military are capable of, and allowed to, dupe the Navy, even after the fact.

    That's my biggest hangup regarding most mundane explanations. At the same time, with a gun to my head I wouldn't rule out #1 as a stratagem to drum up a boost in funding.
     
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  10. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I could see how the public face of the Navy could say one thing while other programs happen quietly, sure. As to other branches of the military duping the Navy, agreed it's a stretch. Not impossible, but a stretch. Elements of the Navy being tested against one another in some fashion, yes. Absolutely.
     
  11. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Well, Tyler Rogoway gave me a little validation, even if it was two years before the thought occurred to me.

    In reading about the Navy Deep Submergence programs and the K-129 it became apparent that a large program could be kept very secret and that it's successors continue on to this day in the same fashion. The ability to operate anywhere in the world's oceans with impunity without detection is a national-level interest that isn't going to just wither on the vine. Anyone with a coastline has to think about that, or certainly should.

    I'm not really speculating specifically about what the devices witnessed were, I have no way of knowing. Rogoway is right in pointing out that the idea of submarine launched and controlled craft - both UAVs and UUVs - has been desirable to the Navy for some time and they have obviously been developing that concept. Again, if we're reading about it we are seeing what we are intended to. So do I think those tic-tacs or whatever really can 'defy the laws of physics' or demonstrate engineering we can't possibly fathom? No. Do they appear to? Yeah, they do, which might be the whole point.

    Various 'trusted reporters' were given access to 'insider information' that they were allowed to publish regarding the K-129. Hellooooooooo George Knapp, Leslie Kean, the New York Times. In the case of K-129 the truth was something very different and has only been hinted at to this day. Classic disinformation tactic is to sandwich a big fat load of nonsense between smaller truths. I'll take it a step further and call BS on Lue Elizondo and Christopher Mellon and I don't care what the man's long and impressive title was. Mellon that is, because nobody seems to want to admit Lue worked for them. Mellon strikes me as just the sort that could and would say stuff like that for his own very good reasons. Another classic tactic is to mix in something absurd - and enter Tom DeLonge.
     
  12. Skepticide123

    Skepticide123 Asymmetric Contact From Hyperdimensional Aliens.

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    I agree. Tbey know what the objects are and they know they aren't from here. And they have for a long time.
     
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  13. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Eeeee. Consider the prosaic alternative that requires far less speculation
     
  14. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Finished up Dr.Craven's book. Yeeeeeup.

    2017 NY Times. Military stuff, emergence of whistleblowers.

    Not talking about ALL UFOs here - but we've stepped in this before and are too young to remember.

    Reminds me a bit of Battlestar Galactica; this has all happened before and will all happen again.
     
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  15. wwkirk

    wwkirk Celestial

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    What's the title?
     
  16. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    Thanks, I was hoping somebody would take a look ! I was ignorant of all this and when I took care of that problem, as a lifelong UFO enthusiast and someone who has been following the developments of the past four years with a somewhat jaundiced eye, I said sheeeeeeeee-it.

    Blind Man's Bluff
    and Red Star Rogue set the scene - and as I've said, context is important. Craven's is last - if you try to go there first it won't have the same impact lacing the background.
    Once I fully set the scene I sat back and said 'oh my'

    I'd suggest having a look in this order:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021 at 3:07 PM
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  17. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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  18. Jim_from_the_South

    Jim_from_the_South Honorable

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    When I worked as a Cryptographer, it was for several departments - one of which was ComSubPac - the Admiral in charge of the Subs in the Pacific. This was in the late 1960s and early 1970s. One message I can share - it was pretty funny. It seems that Natl. Geographic sponsored a Mid-West College to add to our scientific knowledge. The scientists were curious as to why the shelf just offshore of China had never been mapped properly. I kid you not.
    So they leased a wooden cruiser - about 67 feet long, and proceeded to dump depth charges in the waters about 12 miles offshore. They used some WWII surplus equipment to launch the charges, (I think it was from a PT boat) which were filled with modern explosives.
    Needless to say, the nearest boat got an urgent message from the ChiComs, telling us to cease immediately or it would be an act of war - they claim 100 miles out from their coastline as theirs. The boat (sub) tired to contact the scientists, and could not reach them on any frequencies - apparently they never set a radio watch and the radioman was right alongside them - helping to launch the depth charges. So the boat surfaced about 20 feet from them. The scientists freaked, and they were able to get them the hell out of there in time. Now they know why that shelf has not been properly mapped.
     
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  19. pigfarmer

    pigfarmer tall, thin, irritable

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    I have no way to prove this but now believe that yup, it's been mapped in detail. Probably decades ago.
     

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