Tennis GOAT Ranking

Discussion in 'Social Hub' started by Zeke, May 14, 2018.

  1. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    This is an ongoing most popular debate on the tennis forums, as in every respective sports forums.

    I made this earlier in the year as a way to figure out a "Greatest of all Time". Given all the factors involved and changes in the sport and technology it's not very exact and easily debatable as you can see.

    So I got this list using three main catergories and their respective ranks verses other players in the modern game. Most hardcore fans have either Federer or Nadal at #1, but I got Nadal at #4 with 1/3 of my overall value given to combination of the 4 Slams and WTFs (indoor finals). This gives more strength to the likes of Pete Sampras but hurts Nadal, given he's not as well rounded in his game - dubbed "the King of Clay". Also 1/3 value given to career match winning percentage - this helps the likes of Bjorn Borg who played much less but was much more efficient.

    Most would not agree with me as they place value on Masters, which Nadal is #1 for example. But that is applied I think to the weeks at #1 category, 1/3 of overall. You see how debatable this is. Djokovic has lost several matches since this was made but don't think lower percentage than Nadal. Even so, if they would leapfrog each other in that category, the overall rankings would remain. Djokovic has a winning H2H Vs Nadal btw.

    WTF is World Tennis Finals (or year-end indoor final of the top 8 players in round robin format). It's the most scored tournament after the 4 Majors (Slams). These combined are "the business end of the tour". I might play around and add the Masters count to the 1st category and see how this affects the overall ranking.

    Zeke's Tennis GOAT Ranking

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    Guess who's #1 today?

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    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  2. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Honorable

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    I like your analysis.

    You got 1 unread email and your terminal will soon black out ( 3% )
     
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  3. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    No question about Federer, obviously number one but I've considered Sampras at number two instead of Djokovic because of the head to head stats: Sampras vs Federer compared to Djokovic vs Federer...
     
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  4. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    The younger generation has almost forgot about Sampras, let alone Borg. Sampras weakness obviously was his play on clay. If Borg even played at the Australian Open he'd have another 4-5 Slams, next to Federer. And none of the older gen guys played so many Masters as they do today.

    Federer is 1:0 Vs Sampras in their only match at Wimbledon. But it was a 5 setter 7-5 in 5th and a very even match that anyone could have won. One match is not enough to determine which is better alone. Both Sampras and Djokovic are about even with Federer on H2H but with Djokovic its a much bigger sample size.

    Roger Federer VS Novak Djokovic | Head 2 Head | ATP World Tour | Tennis

    Djokovic is the LEAST liked player by mainstream fans. He is taking away slams from Nadal and Federer they see it as. The truth is he is well developed on every surface, and one of the best -if not the best- defensive players of all time.
     
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  5. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Borg was the best.

    Highest win percent.

    Alien Species named after him FTW!
     
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  6. nivek

    nivek As Above So Below

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    Well the biggest difference is in the spread of the points in the matches, with Djokovic and Federer you see a tendency for what I think are blowouts, 6-2 6-3 but with Sampras and Federer it's been closer, a very even match like you mentioned, could have gone either way meaning to me they are a better match...
     
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  7. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    892
    This is true, he is #1 in that category.

    What I'm omitting here also is Davis Cup and Olympics. Tennis, while played by everyone worldwide, is not really an Olympic Sport.

    Davis Cup is Team Play and totally outdated. They are trying hard to make changes. Last I heard they will make it into a one time Tournament like Slams and other finals events, but need to check. Gone are the days of Championships solely gathered by a few exclusive nations - England, USA, Australia.
     
  8. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    And another note:
    The other criterion don't apply to Borg because he retired at 26 which should have been the start of the height of his career.

    Conners (for example) retired at 43.

    And to repeat - Borg is the only tennis star with an Alien species named after him (the Borg).

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    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  9. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    892
    Yes. This is true, but also when you get older your winning match % will likely drop - he would have starting losing more matches and his % would have dropped. It's a trade-off.

    You say his prime, but back then early 20s was prime. I made the % category for likes of Borg, he's earned it. But.. we must also give value to others playing longer and being at age 36 #1 for example.

    So many factors. Now players start out later.. before they played at like 15 even. It's almost futile to have agreement here, but anyway that was my take and I value Borg's efficiency as you can see!

    Btw Borg did make a short comeback, but he had nothing. The game of wooden tennis rackets and tiny tight shorts has passed him.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  10. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    Since making this in January, Nadal has moved up in ranking in the weeks #1 category surpassing McEnroe, so need to update total tally.

    Also, He's getting closer to knocking Djokovic match % down, so also will need to update. Overall rankings should stay the same based on my criterias however.
     
  11. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    His "comeback" was in 1991 at 35 or 36 (ten years later). A 36 year old tennis player that wasn't "up to speed" would get chewed up and spit out on the pro circuit.

    They had switched from small wooden rackets to aluminum oversized ones during his absence.
     
  12. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    39 year old Ivo Karlovic is #1 Server of All-time.

    Is he on the list here? No.

    We need to look at various factors and balance out.
     
  13. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    Fed is #1 at age 36 so not impossible. Remember Borg played against other players who also used wooden rackets, so it was evenly matched conditions.

    He decided to retire in his prime, so he's penalized for that. Yet his efficiency needs to be valued.

    You're telling me he's better than Federer, Sampras, Nadal?

    Believe me I like Borg and everything he brought to the game.
     
  14. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    892
    Updated List :emoji_cartwheel:

    Rafael Nadal has moved up in two categories
    1. in match win % he moved past Djokovic.
    2. in weeks at #1 he moved past John McEnroe.
    Now his total tally, according to my 3 categories, ties him with Pete Sampras at #3. One more slam win from him and will surpass the great Sampras going by my criteria. Djokovic can drop further if he keeps losing as can a Roger in that category, but safe at#1 overall.

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    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  15. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    Borg–Connors rivalry - Wikipedia

    Let's use Connors as a metric.

    Borg leads 15–8 in their official head-to-head

    Was looking at Federers track record and it is interesting - he hasn't won a US Open in a decade (2008). He won his only French Open in 2009. Federer was hot from 2004 to 2009.

    Federer is apparently pretty sh*tty on clay.

    Borg only played the Australian Open once and lost in the US Open to Conners and McEnroe (2 each).

    Apparently the Australian Open used to get skipped a lot.

    Since Federer has apparently made almost all the tournaments the records aren't really comparable.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  16. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    I have Borg certainly ahead of Connors 2 spots on my list. Agree with that.

    Federer U.S Open - that is an interesting observation.

    And here's an interesting stat for you - Borg hasn't won the U.S Open since like - never. :eek:

    He made 5 French Open Finals and 1 won. If not for facing The King of Clay each year in the clay tournaments, he would be actually counted as one of the best clay players of all time. Not "sh*tty", far from.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  17. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    He only played the US Open from 1974-1981. Only Conners was in the US Open finals as much as Borg during this period.

    Given that Federer has gone a decade without winning tournaments he competed in ... we really have to use percent grand slams participated in as an equalizer.

    What is Federers grand slam winning percentage of tournaments played? That is a lot lower than Borg.
     
  18. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    Bjorn Borg beats EVERYONE in win percentage, and yes including Slam tournament play. He has the highest score in that category and catapults him ahead of Conners, Lendl, McEnroe.

    Your comment on Fed is very misleading. Federer just won the Australian Open back to back 2017/2018. He just won Wimbledon and is the defending Champ.

    But do you know there's other players beside Borg? Have you heard of Novak Djokovic who's dominated for 5 years before last year for example? do you even acknowledge that Nadal won 10 French Opens? You clearly stopped watching tennis when wooden racquets were replaced. :Whistle:

    Look, I really like Borg and rank him highly at #5 all time. He left early and that was his choice. He's not better than those in the top 4 looking at the big picture.

    The final blow: even Borg disagrees with you.

     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
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  19. CasualBystander

    CasualBystander Celestial

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    That Djokovic, Federer, and Nadal rack up so many "Grand Slam" tournament wins leads me to believe we aren't comparing apples and apples.

    Federer only won 1 French Open even though he was the #1 seed during the 2000's.

    Nadal is mostly a clay court player.

    List of Grand Slam men's singles champions - Wikipedia

    Just interesting looking at who won what when.
     
  20. Zeke

    Zeke Infrequent

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    Had Nadal played around Borg's time, Borg would have ZERO French Open slams, my guess.

    We can only face opponents during our time, era, so that's why it's hard to find a GOAT. All these players can't play each other under same conditions. My list attempts to balance out categories.

    Borg says in video above that Fed is the best. That should really put this argument to rest.
     

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