UFOs: skeptics, disclosure, and contact

[Todd Feinman]

Okay, a number of the most close-minded skeptics are in the habit of automatically assuming that there must be a mundane explanation for every UFO sighting -because a priori, UFOs cannot exist. With that logic, they also declare that ALL UFO photos are fake, since you know, UFOs cannot exist. And ALL UFO witnesses are mistaken, or lying, because, you know, Witnesses are NEVER to be trusted and UFOs cannot exist. Kind of a sad circular argument... This is a great example, and par for the course at that forum:

The Ariel School UFO Encounter [Ruwa, Zimbabwe, 1994]

Just toad, did any of these researchers ask the children if they had watched Spielberg's seminal 1982 'E.T' either at the cinema or on video? This film was phenomenally popular across all cultures: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083866/releaseinfo I can't find any release date for Zimbabwe...

forums.forteana.org

So.. The most far out ideas are invoked to force mundane events to explain UFO sightings, no matter how absurd. If there was a puppet troupe in the area of the Ariel School sighting --then game over man! That MUST have been it. Because it CERTAINLY couldn't be an anomalous event!! And witnesses? Not to be taken into account, as they are always wrong --of course. If there was a puppetry group in the area at the time.. That would "seal the deal"!!! Let this be a lesson that one can be a learned scientist and still be totally non-objective and biased. Gads... And all of this in the face of how seriously the government continues to take the UFO phenomenon, each and every day now.
Some of these same folks were arguing in the past that the Ohio police chase was.... Wait for it... VENUS!! Because it would HAVE to be!

Famous 86-mile UFO chase in 1966 still defies Air Force 'explanation'

It’s 5 a.m. April 17, 1966, when two Portage County, Ohio, sheriff deputies stop to investigate an abandoned vehicle along a road near Ravenna. Deputy Dale Spaur gets out of his car, while Wilbur “…

www.timesonline.com

View: https://medium.com/the-portager/seeing-a-ufo-ruined-dale-spaurs-life-f86bab152368

This object! Looks like Venus, right??

If that is Venus, I'll be a UFO puppet.

 

[Todd Feinman]

Another huge mistake skeptics make is not reading and paying attention to descriptions of the appearance of UFOs. They look at things like the McMinnville UFO, Heflin pics and many other and say they look hokey --but simple metallic forms is EXACTLY how they have been repeatedly described by UFO witnesses for decades... What has changed is not the form of the UFOs, but rather the expectations of what alien craft should look like in skeptics' minds based on our changing human technology and depictions in movies etc. If you look at the NICAP list of shapes they are: discs, cigar shaped objects, and spheres. And they are metallic; they don't have lots of doodads all over them! These descriptions go all the way back to the Sternenschiff of 1851... Many including the Sternenschiff look like this:

The day UFOs stopped play

In 1954, a football game in Florence was interrupted by UFOs flying over the stadium. The spectacle was witnessed by more than 10,000 people – but what was it?

www.bbc.com

Avi Loeb is also subject to a priori biases --looking for solar sails --because that is what our scientists are currently considering for our own explorations!!! But he is coming around to being more open minded. It is just a fact that some of the most close-minded people I know are... Scientists. I've seen them type things like "All UFO photos are fakes, because UFOs do not exist"!!!
Doesn't get much more dense that that. That's the opposite of science.

 

[Todd Feinman]

I gotta stop looking at the stuff very close-minded skeptics / debunkers write. It pisses me off. Jungian symbolism... Tulpas.. Mogul! Weather balloons, Venus, Bah!!! Pull yr heads out.

 

[Todd Feinman]

Excellent.

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/ufo/comments/qux9/are_the_ufo_forums_getting_shilled_by_debunkers/

 

[Todd Feinman]

I suspect that the skeptics at Metabunk and other forums; places where the anomalous explanation for UFOs is not allowed (dismissed as speculation, when all of what those skeptics in those places do is speculate), will slowly stop posting as more and more UFO material comes out.. They will silently slither away, and attempts to engage them will be futile. Other skeptics will doubtlessly contend that all they were doing was waiting for real evidence to come out; they've been doing a lot more than waiting. It will be enjoyable, either way! Even now the UFO posts at Metabunk have started to peter out.. Hmmm.

 

[wwkirk]

I suspect that the skeptics at Metabunk and other forums; places where the anomalous explanation for UFOs is not allowed (dismissed as speculation, when all of what those skeptics in those places do is speculate), will slowly stop posting as more and more UFO material comes out.. They will silently slither away, and attempts to engage them will be futile. Other skeptics will doubtlessly contend that all they were doing was waiting for real evidence to come out; they've been doing a lot more than waiting. It will be enjoyable, either way! Even now the UFO posts at Metabunk have started to peter out.. Hmmm.

As one who is up on the doings of skeptics, what has been their attitude or stance regarding the renewed (public) government and military interest in UAPs over the past few years? Were they saying that the government and military are dumb or deluded, or did they have their own brand of conspiracy theory to explain the surge in interest?

 

[Todd Feinman]

As one who is up on the doings of skeptics, what has been their attitude or stance regarding the renewed (public) government and military interest in UAPs over the past few years? Were they saying that the government and military are dumb or deluded, or did they have their own brand of conspiracy theory to explain the surge in interest?

Skeptics think that the evidence release by the government or leaked thus far, is of poor quality and all debunkable, and they are partially correct in that assessment, as the government has released the crappiest evidence they have, and refuse thus far to release better evidence --which they say they have, because it would compromise our sensor capabilities and infrastructure (whish is BS). They refuse to believe in any anomalous explanations --a priori-- for the UFOs seen by the Omaha, and other warships. They think all of the military witnesses (Fravor, etc,), no matter how well trained and credible, are all mistaken about what they witnessed. They think there must be mundane explanations for all of them. Over at Metabunk, all they do is try on different mundane theories and discard them when they realize they won't fit, faster than Imelda Marcos probably tried on shoes.. and in the end they are really left with nothing. They will not look at the history of the phenomenon, and the excellent sightings of the past, and connect those with the present sightings, even though the military and government has already done so -- "no more stigma" etc. They will not admit any importance to so many government agencies now working together to understand UFOs (NASA, etc.). They apparently see no possibility that even though members of Congress saw better and longer videos that the public wasn't allowed to see, that those could just be the tip of the iceberg. They refuse to listen to civilian UFO witnesses; they must be all delusional, and unreliable.
It is this arrogance that will be their undoing, and is undoing them right now, daily.
Again, if there was a crime scene, one wouldn't go to court with just a blurry photo as the only evidence that the perpetrator is innocent and expect it to exonerate; witness testimony about what actually happened --especially if corroborative, about the suspect, spanning that person's behavior over decades, in conjunction with those photos, would win in court. Circumstantial evidence IS evidence. They refuse to admit the possible reality of any historic UFO photo, and believe that all of the people who witnessed those events and took those photos are delusional or hoaxers.. When you look at the phenomenon in such a close-minded way through a narrow little lens, it is no surprise that your ignorance will be your undoing.

 

[wwkirk]

Skeptics think that the evidence release by the government or leaked thus far, is of poor quality and all debunkable, and they are partially correct in that assessment, as the government has released the crappiest evidence they have, and refuse thus far to release better evidence --which they say they have, because it would compromise our sensor capabilities and infrastructure (whish is BS). They refuse to believe in any anomalous explanations --a priori-- for the UFOs seen by the Omaha, and other warships. They think all of the military witnesses (Fravor, etc,), no matter how well trained and credible, are all mistaken about what they witnessed. They think there must be mundane explanations for all of them. Over at Metabunk, all they do is try on different mundane theories and discard them when they realize they won't fit, faster than Imelda Marcos probably tried on shoes.. and in the end they are really left with nothing. They will not look at the history of the phenomenon, and the excellent sightings of the past, and connect those with the present sightings, even though the military and government has already done so -- "no more stigma" etc. They will not admit any importance to so many government agencies now working together to understand UFOs (NASA, etc.). They apparently see no possibility that even though members of Congress saw better and longer videos that the public wasn't allowed to see, that those could just be the tip of the iceberg. They refuse to listen to civilian UFO witnesses; they must be all delusional, and unreliable.
It is this arrogance that will be their undoing, and is undoing them right now, daily.
Again, if there was a crime scene, one wouldn't go to court with just a blurry photo as the only evidence that the perpetrator is innocent and expect it to exonerate; witness testimony about what actually happened --especially if corroborative, about the suspect, spanning that person's behavior over decades, in conjunction with those photos, would win in court. Circumstantial evidence IS evidence. They refuse to admit the possible reality of any historic UFO photo, and believe that all of the people who witnessed those events and took those photos are delusional or hoaxers.. When you look at the phenomenon in such a close-minded way through a narrow little lens, it is no surprise that your ignorance will be your undoing.

Thanks. Do they speculate about why the government is exhibiting increased interest in the topic?

 

[Todd Feinman]

Thanks. Do they speculate about why the government is exhibiting increased interest in the topic?

They don't really directly address it --other than some speculation that it is for more military funding --which is ridiculous as all that would have to be done is invoke China, and there would be no big conspiracy between so many different people / agencies across time, and US military funding just continues to go up, anyway. Mostly it is just crickets.... anything they cannot come up with a ridiculous answer for, they just ignore.

 

[nivek]

the Ariel School sighting

This skeptic has become a parody of himself...lol


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/MickWest/status/1557127520129994752


.

 

[Todd Feinman]

This skeptic has become a parody of himself...lol


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/MickWest/status/1557127520129994752


.

That is funny stuff!! Mick actually seems like a nice guy, and he's very smart; he used to believe in the occult and things paranormal --like a lot of folks in the UK, but then his pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction... Now, any UFO sighting is explained away by skeptics by shoehorning them into these ridiculous unlikely mundane scenarios --of course the witnesses are NOT to be believed; even if there are multiple sightings of the same object, or a mass sighting. They use the crummy evidence released by the Navy to discredit the entire phenomenon. Again, they are hamstringing themselves. That is also not how evidence for court cases is gathered, and that is why they are being T-boned by the UFO phenomenon, daily, without seeming to notice. A perfect example is the skeptic and Mick West fanboy over at Fortean Forum who tried to dismiss the UFO in the Ohio police chase as..... Venus!!!

 

[Dejan Corovic]

Just found this. Among the papers of diseased astronaut Edgar Michel journalists found this conversation between Dr. Eric Davies ( associate of Dr. Hall Puthoff ) and US admiral Wilson. Conversation is about government and private companies secret program for retrieval of UFO derbies. Please, go to this video and jump to 41:40 to hear overall context:


View: https://youtu.be/pSZUBulON6I?t=2464


then you can go here and download a .PDF containing that conversation.

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

 

[pigfarmer]

Admittedly I haven't looked at the video, but this has been making the circuit a while. I believe it's hogwash. Davies seems to like the attention quite a bit and Wilson has no compelling motive to leak classified info to him. He has repeatedly denied it and I think there is a rumor Davies was creating and/or circulating a manuscript.

This is like one of those Bob Lazar or Ray Stanford stories where you have some peculiar individual - who isn't just a schmuck - making extraordinary claims with no proff yet seem to develop a devoted following. And just when you though it was over, it ain't.

 

[Dejan Corovic]

Admittedly I haven't looked at the video, but this has been making the circuit a while. I believe it's hogwash. Davies seems to like the attention quite a bit and Wilson has no compelling motive to leak classified info to him. He has repeatedly denied it and I think there is a rumor Davies was creating and/or circulating a manuscript.

This is like one of those Bob Lazar or Ray Stanford stories where you have some peculiar individual - who isn't just a schmuck - making extraordinary claims with no proff yet seem to develop a devoted following. And just when you though it was over, it ain't.

Documents were found by accident in the estate of the late astronaut Edgar Michel.

It seems that New York Times will run full story about this any time soon:


View: https://youtu.be/RbUpcVO_Z3I

What gov. is doing they are passing the retrievals on private companies, because private companies are not subject to FOI-a requests.

 

[nivek]

Two respected Air Force officers reported the video capture of a Flying Saucer laser beaming a test-nuclear warhead in space on 14 September 1964 at Vandenberg Air Base. According to Dr. Robert Jacobs, who was an Air Force Lieutenant at the time, two men in grey flannel suits came and took the film, saying "this never happened."


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtopkywm1AU


.

 

[Todd Feinman]

Two respected Air Force officers reported the video capture of a Flying Saucer laser beaming a test-nuclear warhead in space on 14 September 1964 at Vandenberg Air Base. According to Dr. Robert Jacobs, who was an Air Force Lieutenant at the time, two men in grey flannel suits came and took the film, saying "this never happened."


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtopkywm1AU


.

A very interesting case. He came out n Larry King, years ago. Question is,, why is our anti-missile technology so different from that, these days, if it was our tech back then? Certainly seems superior.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liHkj0lziuw

Reminds me of:


And.. Sound Familiar??

 

[pigfarmer]

Documents were found by accident in the estate of the late astronaut Edgar Michel.

It seems that New York Times will run full story about this any time soon:


View: https://youtu.be/RbUpcVO_Z3I

What gov. is doing they are passing the retrievals on private companies, because private companies are not subject to FOI-a requests.

This has been around for some time now. A surprise the NYT is running an article, but they’ve done that before. We’ll see what comes out in the wash

 

[Dejan Corovic]

I'm pretty sure US already has and operates its own UFO crafts.

There are some indications that US has a base just for UFOs in a vicinity of Guam. Great location, far away from US public, but close to US enemies. For UFO Earth distances mean nothing so its not far from anything that US wants to reach.

 

[pigfarmer]

https://www.congress.gov/117/meeting/house/114761/documents/HHRG-117-IG05-20220517-SD001.pdf

Well, there's a solid source for the Davis-Wilson memo. Not easy to read, parts are written more like a manuscript - which may be it's originally intended purpose. As far as I know the only one who will confirm any of this is Steven Greer, who probably did really have some sort of meeting at the Pentagon. Page 13 is the reference to Colonel Corso. Neither of those two things lend gravitas to the story.

So there are numerous references to various touchstone events in ufology and adds nothing, only confirms thinking that predates the twenty year old memo i.e secret access programs partially outside the US Gov't, lack of Executive Branch knowledge and so forth.

Considering the consequences I ask myself what could possibly have motivated Wilson to say this to Davis and for what reason. I am suspicious of Davis for Doty-like attention seeking behavior that tells us pretty much exactly what we want and expect to hear.

 

[pigfarmer]

This is interesting to watch - I actually sat through the whole thing. 1.5 playback speed helps.
Not much has changed since then.


View: https://youtu.be/dwO6AY8YRR0