Arguments Against ETH

Kentucky Train Collision with Disk UFO, 2002-UFO Casebook Files

What about the reports of UFOs running into trains and such and other bad driving???

Joyriding kids I tell you.
Didn't you read the report? You got it backwards - the train struck the UFO, not the other way around:

"Paintsville, Kentucky -- At exactly 2:47 a.m. on January 14, 2002, while working a coal train enroute from Russell, Kentucky to Shelbiana, Kentucky, our trailing unit and first two cars were severely damaged as we struck an unknown floating or hovering object."

This is a wild case - apparently the train conductor saw a light ahead, so he turned off his lights to avoid blinding the crew of (what he thought was) the other train. As they got closer they realized that several objects were hovering over the ground, some of which were shining searchlights down on the river next to the train tracks. One of the objects was hovering over the tracks, and as they approached it, the engines and other systems on the train failed, and it continued coasting from the inertia of its 16,000-ton payload. So now totally dark and silent, the train rounded a bend and stuck the UFO at about 30mph, causing serious damage to a couple of the train cars - he said it looked like the cars had been struck with a giant hammer. After the automated emergency brakes stopped the train a mile or two from the impact site, the systems were operational again, and they drove the train in for repairs.

Fascinatingly, a swarm of unidentified personnel were at the station when they pulled in, and they barraged them with questions, then told them that it was an issue of national security and they'd appreciate it if they kept quiet about it. I would love to know who those people were - isn't it funny how everyone denies that they study UFOs, but the moment that any physical evidence is generated, there's always some johnny-on-the -spot official team right there to scour the scene.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
Kentucky Train Collision with Disk UFO, 2002-UFO Casebook Files

What about the reports of UFOs running into trains and such and other bad driving???

Joyriding kids I tell you.

As a side note, the UFO clipped the front of the train and damaged the trailing engine to the point it wouldn't function and damaged the first two cars so badly they had to assess if the train could continue.

That was a pretty tough UFO which just flew away. That level of crash resistance implies bullet resistance.

HVW with terminal guidance appears to be the ticket.

Didn't you read the report? You got it backwards - the train struck the UFO, not the other way around:

...

Let's review the bidding here - supersonic UFO struck by 30 MPH train.

A train is roughly 14 feet tall. Less than 14 feet off the ground isn't really flying.

You are claiming that UFO was hovering over the tracks while the driver was texting or using social media.

The train crew assumed it was a train on the opposing track and cut their lights, and when they got close that became a mute issue because the train lost power.

Given it took the train almost two miles to stop with brakes, cutting the power to a moving train is largely irrelevant.
 
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As a side note, the UFO clipped the front of the train and damaged the trailing engine to the point it wouldn't function and damaged the first two cars so badly they had to assess if the train could continue.

That was a pretty tough UFO which just flew away. That level of crash resistance implies bullet resistance.
It could imply much more than bullet resistance. We don't know how much (if any) damage the AAV suffered, but the fact that it flew away after being hit by a 16,000 ton train that suffered severe damage from the impact suggests that projectile weaponry isn't going to do the trick.

with terminal guidance appears to be the ticket.
So you're just going to assume that we'll get lucky and find an AAV hovering stationary for long enough to get a target lock and launch a projectile from orbit and hit a 30ft target before it notices the approaching slug. Hm.

You are claiming that UFO was hovering over the tracks while the driver was texting or using social media.
I "claimed" nothing, I simply summarized the report. I don't recall any mention of a distracted conductor.

The train crew assumed it was a train on the opposing track and cut their lights, and when they got close that became a mute issue because the train lost power.
*moot issue, not mute issue.

Given it took the train almost two miles to stop with brakes, cutting the power to a moving train is largely irrelevant.
You ever get the feeling that somebody's arguing with you for no good reason? Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about or why. The fact that the train lost power as it approached the UFO was interesting; that's the reason I included that in my summary of the report.

But it could also possibly explain why the UFO didn't detect the approaching train: the train turned off its lights at a significant distance from the craft, and then the engines and other systems went down (presumably as an effect of some field surrounding the craft, as Dejan has pointed out with over 400 such vehicle interference cases), so the train was basically silent and dark as it closed in on the craft and impacted it.

I don't know why you're nitpicking the details. You chose this case as an example of "joyriding UFOs" and this turned out to be a completely unrelated scenario.
 
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CasualBystander

Celestial
The fact that the train lost power as it approached the UFO was interesting; that's the reason I included that in my summary of the report.

I wonder if a list of UFO object collisions is available. Cutting power to nearby objects at night makes collisions more likely.

I was originally looking for UFO collisions with stationary objects when I found this report.

The report seems pretty solid and it is hard to hide a train.

Update: 2002 Paintsville, Kentucky Collision With Unidentified Object - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms

Something 10-12 feet above the ground hit the train.
 
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I have looked at the Ariel school incident. Tough it has some problems like Mack asking leading questions, those kids have not backed off since and theyre adults now. Im convinced they experienced something strange that deeply affected them. I dont know what it is, but its damn intresting. Those messages too...

When you look at the planet, we havent exactly been treating it with silk gloves. Apathy and greed are a dangerous combination. It makes me fear what tomorrow brings.

It also makes me wonder that if there are aliens here, maybe theyre not here waiting for us to grow up. Maybe theyre recording the last moments of yet another failing civilization before it dissappears into the dusts of history. A grim tought yes, but possible.
 
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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
Recently in this thread I came across this article https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishing.com/2017/12/18/iran-ufo-reports-revealed/

I know I already posted it but these things can get lost in the clutter easily.

"Covert agents from the Iranian Army Command of Intelligence and Reconnaissance reported UFO sightings over strategic locations in Iraq prior to coalition air strikes during Operation Desert Storm in 1991. Similar reports of UFO sightings over Afghanistan and Iraq came just days prior to the launch of Operation Enduring Freedom in 2002 and Iraqi Freedom in 2003"

I couldn't read the original docs because the resolution is too low so I went looking for them elsewhere. Wasn't successful. It suggested that about the time of the Nimitz incidents that something similar was occurring elsewhere and that it had been going on for some time. AirForces Monthly might not have the authority of USNI Proceedings but it isn't the Midnight Globe either.

While looking I came across this; FOIA | CIA FOIA (foia.cia.gov)
The CIA isn't going to accidentally publish secret UFO files and they do monitor publications from all over the place as a matter of course, so there's a lot of clutter in this FOIA page. But I was a little intrigued by one document I found: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0005517695.pdf

It's dated - refers to the USSR. I think this is part of an interview with Gen. Ivan M. Tretyak who assumed command of Troops of National Air Defense (PVO) in 1987. You want to take a look at exactly what that is here it is:
Troops of National Air Defense (PVO) - Russian and Soviet Nuclear Forces

Here's the man charged with defending a huge border and had access to the best technology available at the time. This sounds like he's talking about the first Gulf War. Iraq had been a Soviet client state and had their state of the art systems deployed. They were more than a little shocked to see it all summarily switched off and destroyed immediately at the outset of hostilities. He was commenting on how robust US reconnaissance was at the time. I attached the pdf this came from but here's what caught my eye:

upload_2019-2-28_9-55-31.png


So the Iranians aren't buying ET and neither were the Godless Commies. I was thinking of whatever it was Paul Bennewitz witnessed, Leik Myrabo and what may have been developed over the intervening decades - even if it wasn't deployed under the guise of SDI. No it doesn't explain everything but has to be a factor in all this.
 

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pigfarmer

tall, thin, irritable
it's basically impossible to know if someone's telling a fish tale or not: how could anyone parse that data set?

Agreed. Not much you can do with the likes of Calvin Parker. No idea what to make of that - not that you actually can make anything of it. Unfortunately we have Betty and Barney Hill, Travis Walton and others who have become minor celebrities and in the course of doing so have introduced so much bad noise things like the Ariel School and Father Gill tend to get drowned out.
 
I have looked at the Ariel school incident. Tough it has some problems like Mack asking leading questions, those kids have not backed off since and theyre adults now. Im convinced they experienced something strange that deeply affected them. I dont know what it is, but its damn intresting. Those messages too...

When you look at the planet, we havent exactly been treating it with silk gloves. Apathy and greed are a dangerous combination. It makes me fear what tomorrow brings.
I used to fear for the future, but now I fear for the present. In addition to all the poison we've been belching into the ecosphere for the last century and the rise of neofeudal economics and widespread global political corruption over the last few decades as corporations have seized power pretty much everywhere, the global temperature has risen by about 1.8 degrees over the last century, and that's far more dramatic at the poles where the net temperature has risen by at least 4-5 degrees...that's why the polar ice caps are melting so quickly. We are on a doomed course and the UN report gives us about 12 years to retool the global energy sector before catastrophic events for our civilization become unavoidable.

It also makes me wonder that if there are aliens here, maybe theyre not here waiting for us to grow up. Maybe theyre recording the last moments of yet another failing civilization before it dissappears into the dusts of history. A grim tought yes, but possible.
I have this thought often, because it seems to explain the prevalence of AAVs in recent decades, and the reluctance of the operators to talk with us: not much point in opening a conversation with a species that isn't long for this world.
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
The problem with tossing political commentary into a thread on another topic is makes it twist up like a snake when you have cut it's head off.

Global warming is a political topic. The pro-warming factions can't prove their claims and Hansen's (and others) predictions have been miserable failures.

Any science topic that divides left and right isn't science it is opinion.

As noted in previous posts, there is evidence that CO2 warming does occur, just not as much as the pro-warming side claims, and the 3-4 times water vapor multiplier has never materialized - in fact the water vapor feedback has been negative perhaps due to deforestation.

Without strong forcing and strong water vapor feedback "greenhouse" warming is an interesting observation and not a serious problem.

And now back to the original thread

The problem with ETH is lack of hard evidence.

I tend to think there is some, but can't prove it or disprove it.

My computations based on the fact we haven't found an earthlike world (and the more we learn about earth's history the stranger it is) is that intelligent life is about one planet in a 300-500 light year radius and there are about 500 of them.

If we are getting visited it isn't happening often or by many different ones.

Interdimensional (assuming that is even possible) would appear to be about as likely, or perhaps some Eemian civilization achieved space travel (the previous interglacial) and is playing hide and seek with us.
 
Any science topic that divides left and right isn't science it is opinion.
Nonsense. Global warming is an indisputable empirical scientific fact. The propaganda unleashed by corporate interests that profit from the destruction of the ecosphere is irrelevant - none of it changes the hard scientific data which shows dramatically rising CO2 levels, dramatically rising global temperatures, and dramatically rising sea levels - none of these empirical facts are "opinion."

The problem with ETH is lack of hard evidence.
I don't know what "hard evidence" you're talking about - there's a mountain of hard evidence in support of the ETH, across a wide variety of scientific disciplines. If you mean "hard evidence that AAVs are interplanetary," then that's a red herring - there's no such thing as "hard evidence of origin." At best we could attempt to determine that a device does not originate on the Earth, but even that's tricky because we can never know the full capabilities of secret military aerospace research projects.

My computations based on the fact we haven't found an earthlike world (and the more we learn about earth's history the stranger it is) is that intelligent life is about one planet in a 300-500 light year radius and there are about 500 of them.
Your base assumption is grossly inaccurate because it's virtually impossible to detect an Earth-like planet in the habitable zone of a Sun-like star using our best contemporary instruments. But this can be addressed through proper analysis of the data. I know of two such analyses to date, and here's what it boils down to:

- There are roughly 200 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone.

- Roughly 40 billion of those stars are Sun-like.

- Roughly 20% of those Sun-like stars are orbited by an Earth-like planet in the habitable Zone.

- So various estimates show that there are between 2 billion to 11 billion Earth-like planets in our galaxy (8 billion is probably the right approximate answer).

- All of the factors that we can detect point to a relatively high prevalence for life: water is ubiquitous, amino acids are ubiquitous, and recent work by a Harvard-Smithsonian collaboration found that Earth-like planets will have very similar composition and magnetic fields to our Earth. So the main area of uncertainty now is the prevalence of intelligent life, which is debatable. I favor the view that our planet is probably relatively ordinary in the scheme of things, and that since intelligence is the greatest survival advantage, it probably happens on a reasonable share of living worlds.

- Interestingly, research has also found that the average age of habitable Earth-like worlds is between 2-3 billion years older than our Earth. This provides ample opportunity for intelligent life to arise on such worlds, and to have vastly exceeded our present technological capabilities.

- As far as detection of technological civilizations goes, we don't have the technology to pick up the kinds of radio transmissions that our civilization has been generating for the last century at significant interstellar distances, so the non-detection of SETI is meaningless. And we're already moving beyond the high-power-transmission era of radio and television broadcasting, favoring cable connectivity and comparatively lower-power directed satellites transmissions instead - this is a sensible move toward greater efficiency, which is likely with any technological civilization. So the chances of detecting the roughly one-century era of radio broadcasting in the billions of years of planetary development, are essentially nil. In my view technological civilizations are likely quite common throughout the universe, and they simply don't use radio signals to communicate at interstellar distances because their technological progress moved beyond that phase billions of years ago, on average.

If we are getting visited it isn't happening often or by many different ones.
All of the data that we have refutes both components of that statement.

(assuming that is even possible) would appear to be about as likely, or perhaps some Eemian civilization achieved space travel (the previous interglacial) and is playing hide and seek with us.
Apples and oranges. I can't even fathom how any rational mind could liken the possibility of interstellar visitation to the wildly speculative notion of interdimensional travel. There's a wealth of supporting data favoring the ETH, and zero supporting evidence for the interdimensional idea (if other universes even exist at all).
 
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humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
Humanoidlord opts to simply believe every story that anyone ever tells, and he assumes that the crazier the story, the more likely it is to be true...obviously that's an insane and totally backwards methodology
but the best methodology to apply to a phenomena that refuses to make sense, the closest we got to an sensible explanation to the UFO phenomena is jose caravaca's distortion theory, wich states that an external agent with the ability to manipulate the mind, implant false memories, create holograms and weakly manipulate the enviromnent is behind the UFO phenomena and all other phenomena that fits inside the fortean umbrella
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
isn't it funny how everyone denies that they study UFOs, but the moment that any physical evidence is generated, there's always some johnny-on-the -spot official team right there to scour the scene.
what if john keel was right and those men are part of the phenomena too?
most encounters with the MIB describe them as looking tottally inhuman and vampiric
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
I have this thought often, because it seems to explain the prevalence of AAVs in recent decades, and the reluctance of the operators to talk with us: not much point in opening a conversation with a species that isn't long for this world.
UFOs are behind your destruction, they have created religions, manipulated leaders, killed people and done many other atrocities.
UFOs are the enemy
jacques vallee was the first man to notice this disturbing fact
 
UFOs are behind your destruction, they have created religions, manipulated leaders, killed people and done many other atrocities.
UFOs are the enemy
jacques vallee was the first man to notice this disturbing fact

Now you sound like Tom Delonge.

Hasnt he been saying the same kind of stuff, "theyre our gods, they pit people against each other.".... right.
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
I don't know what "hard evidence" you're talking about - there's a mountain of hard evidence in support of the ETH, across a wide variety of scientific disciplines. If you mean "hard evidence that AAVs are interplanetary," then that's a red herring - there's no such thing as "hard evidence of origin." At best we could attempt to determine that a device does not originate on the Earth, but even that's tricky because we can never know the full capabilities of secret military aerospace research projects.
no, there isn't, there is just proof that something is in our skies, and that ETH is just one of the many many possibilities, in fact ETH doesn't explains all the anomalies of the UFO phenomena
If all parties concerned are not opposed, I'll move the climate posts in this thread to the Global Cooling or Global Warming? thread, its a good discussion and good information provided...

...
do it, its completely off-topic
 

humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
Now you sound like Tom Delonge.

Hasnt he been saying the same kind of stuff, "theyre our gods, they pit people against each other.".... right.
the difference here is that tom delongue is certain of that, i know i may be wrong but right now there is no proof angaist my theory
 
All the strangeness btw could be simply technology utilized which we just dont understand. What did Clarke say after all.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Theres a Star Trek episode that demonstrates this well, fictionally. Its called Devil's Due, where some off planet con artist recreates and poses as "the devil" to manipulate an alien culture to her own ends, using their legends and her own advanced technology.

So this UFO phenomenon. Maybe its manipulation like this for some unknown end or perhaps for pure and simple amusement. And you dont need "an interdimensional God" or "angels/demons" to do it, just some sufficiently advanced off worlders.
 
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humanoidlord

ce3 researcher
All the strangeness btw could be simply technology utilized which we just dont understand. What did Clarke say after all.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Theres a Star Trek episode that demonstrates this well, fictionally. Its called Devil's Due, where some off planet con artist recreates and poses as "the devil" to manipulate an alien culture to her own ends, using their legends and her own advanced technology.

So this UFO phenomenon. Maybe its manipulation like this for some unknown end or perhaps for pure and simple amusement. And you dont need "an interdimensional God" or "angels/demons" to do it, just some sufficiently advanced off worlders.
who knows, maybe, but the UFO phenomena is definitely not what it looks like (various interestellar civilizations visiting earth using FTL drives) maybe its still extraterrestrial but something way more alien than an star trek style alien council
 

CasualBystander

Celestial
who knows, maybe, but the UFO phenomena is definitely not what it looks like (various interestellar civilizations visiting earth using FTL drives) maybe its still extraterrestrial but something way more alien than an star trek style alien council

I'm still dubious about warp drive.

The effect would have to propagate at the speed of light.

This would limit you to the speed of light.

That is a lot of energy just to get to light speed. Not sure it would be less than simply accelerating to 0.9 C for a long voyage and could be orders of magnitude more, which makes it impractical.
 
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