Discussion in 'Present & Current Events' started by wwkirk, Oct 22, 2021.
Actor who fatally shot Brandon Lee in 1993 tragedy also traumatized
Alec Baldwin's fatal prop gun shooting: Experts weigh in on how accident happened
This accident is "an unprecedented procedural failure in the history of firearms safety. It's unbelievable," film and prop historian Michael Corrie told Fox News.
"The person responsible for loading and ensuring that the firearm is ready for the scene is called an armorer [or weapons master], and you're supposed to have an armorer and an assistant armorer. Then there are several steps that you're supposed to go through to ensure that a weapon is loaded correctly with the correct type of blanks," Corrie explained. "Because there's more than one type of blank, there's lower power and then mid-power and then high-power blanks, and they create different visual effects."
"Before the actor is even given the weapon, it's supposed to go through several stages of safety before it's handed to the actor. And the actor has to entrust that the armorer and everyone else involved have done their job correctly before handing the weapon to the actor," he continued.
Armorer is a fairly new position in the history of film production, going back only to the 1980s. Before that, the prop master handled everything. Recently, it’s become more common to enlist specialists.
The weapons master or armorer is required to be on set whenever a weapon is being used. The Actors' Equity Association's guidelines state, "Before each use, make sure the gun has been test-fired off stage and then ask to test-fire it yourself. Watch the prop master check the cylinders and barrel to be sure no foreign object or dummy bullet has become lodged inside." Further, "All loading of firearms must be done by the property master, armorer or experienced persons working under their direct supervision."
A prop firearm could apply to anything from a rubber toy to a real firearm that can fire a projectile. However, if it's used for firing (even just blanks) it's considered a real gun. A blank is a type of gun cartridge that contains gunpowder but no bullet. Still, it can seriously hurt or kill someone who is close by, according to the Actors' Equity Association.
It's still unclear what was shot out of the gun used by Baldwin on the set. The Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office is investigating what "type of projectile was discharged."
OK, to be honest my day started at 0300 and here it is 11:20+ pm and I'm going to hit the hay. Long day.
I have not read this thread thoroughly and for me, this isn't a matter of my personal feelings toward Alec Baldwin. He fired a 1911 with dramatic flair in Hunt for Red October well enough because apparently there was professional oversight involved.
Several years ago I went to a range with someone and when I went down to the 100 yard line to change targets I looked back and saw the man fooling with his rifle on the bench. You don't do that, ever. The correct thing to do is put the weapon down with an open breech and do nothing. Put your hands in your pocket, pick your nose, balance your checkbook - do anything other than touch the weapon while someone is downrange. Well, he did - which might just cause a problem. When I confronted him he told me there is a difference between "safety and asshole safety" Noooooooo, wrong answer. Never shot with him again, for good cause.
I smell asshole safety coming out of this. Who bypassed the professional trainers, who were in charge of the firearms issues immediately after deployment, and who in their right mind .
This will all come out in the the wash. Clever ley
I used to be a decent shot with a rifle. Could not, as the saying goes, hit a barn from the inside with a handgun. I don't go hunting or shooting anymore, or even go into the woods this time of year because of the asinine things I've seen people do. I have two cousins, one on each side of my family, that I won't go near if there is any sort of firearm being used. Morons.
Seems the armorer on the set is the daughter of a famous Hollywood armorer with a long established reputation. That skill isn't genetic, you have to learn it. Why in God's name was live ammo even present?
Not new to some of us but I've been reading some gobbdygook about this in the news.
When you load handgun ammo there are different ways to do it. Not all smokeless gunpowder is the same, it comes in all sorts of varieties depending on application. I have a few loads that are really flash-bang-fireball impressive and I'd imagine that's what they would be after on a movie set. To the handloaders here I'd be referring to compressed loads and a flake powder like Hercules 2400.
The cartridge case has a round little pocket at one end that you press a primer into. It's what the firing pin strikes and is the only part that actually explodes - that ignition is sent to the gunpowder in the case through a small hole. The gunpowder burns. Very fast, looks like an explosion but isn't. The bullet fits in the barrel very tight, to a 1/1000th of an inch measurement. The pressure of the expanding gas is what shoots it out the barrel like a spitball and any unburned powder is ignited as it exits the muzzle and that's what the flash-bang you see is.
Lacking a bullet you gotta have something to hold the gunpowder in the case. A small flat round wad made of felt or even cardboard is used to do this. I think the case mouth may even be crimped in a way to help this - in an obvious way that you can tell just by looking at it. All that can leave debris in the barrel. Brandon Lee died because the armorer failed to check the barrel and even that blank round can propel the crap left at lethal velocity. Blanks still have plenty of power behind them - as Jon Eric Hexum found out. It fractured his skull and the bone fragments destroyed his brain.
A competent armorer would visually check and clean the bore and cylinders before inserting the blanks. Live ammo would not even be present for the very good reason we just unfortunately saw.
Never thought I'd say this but I have empathy for Alec Baldwin. He'll never get over this.
Alec Baldwin ignored the No. 1 rule of gun safety: Hollywood weapons expert
Kerry J. Byrne and Dana Kennedy
October 23, 2021 10:21am
Alec Baldwin failed to follow the No. 1 rule of gun safety before the fatal shooting on the set of “Rust,” a Hollywood weapons expert tells The Post.
“Loaded or unloaded, a weapon never gets pointed at another human being,” said Bryan Carpenter, who heads Dark Thirty Film Services.
Even on a film or TV set, he said “you never let the muzzle of a weapon cover something you don’t intend to destroy.”
The prop gun had misfired twice on Oct. 16 and once the week before, according to the Los Angeles times, and union workers said the “Rust” set had been plagued by safety issues, prompting them to walk out in the hours ahead of the tragic shooting.
The International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees also claimed Halyna Hutchins was killed by a live round of ammunition, which should never have been on a film set, said former filmmaker and US National Shooting Team member Peter Lake.
A Hollywood weapons expert thinks Alec Baldwin broke the most important rule of handling a gun.
Jim Weber/The New Mexican
“I can’t think of any reason there would be a live round anywhere on set. They are generally prohibited from movie sets. There is no explanation I can think of why there would be a live round in a gun on set. You certainly wouldn’t have it in the hands of an actor,” Lake told The Post.
Hutchins, a 42-year-old cinematographer, was killed when Baldwin fired a handgun as she was behind the camera, filming him, on Thursday. Director Joel Souza, who was standing near Hutchins, was also hurt in the shooting.
The weapon was declared “cold” by a crew member, while specific details of the shooting remain unclear and are under investigation, including the trail of events that put the deadly firearm in Baldwin’s hands.
“Nonetheless,” Carpenter said, the weapon handled by Baldwin was “obviously pointed at another human being.”
The weapons consultant cited what he called “Colonel Jeff Cooper’s four fundamentals” of gun safety.
“All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are,” reads the No. 1 rule by Cooper, an influential gun safety expert who died in 2006.
While news reports call the firearm a “prop” weapon, Carpenter said the label can be misleading. Some movie-set firearms are “true” props made of rubber. But others, like the one used on the set of “Rust,” are capable of deadly force.
The consultant also said that for safety purposes live firearms used in TV and movie productions are typically aimed at a dummy point, not at equipment, cast or crew members, as was the case with the weapon handled by Baldwin.
A whip and a loud pop, then she stumbled backwards grabbing her midsection': Director relives horrific moment Alec Baldwin shot and killed cinematographer as he 'practiced drawing his gun and pointing it at the camera'
Joel Souza (inset right), the film director who was struck by Alec Baldwin during the accidental shooting of the cinematographer has recalled how the actor drew the revolver (inset left) across his body and pointed it at a camera during rehearsal when the weapon fired. A new affidavit released on Sunday, as a vigil (centre) was held for Halyna Hutchins (right), describes how Baldwin was handed the prop gun and told it was unloaded before he shot and killed the cinematographer, 42, and wounded director Joel Souza on the set of Rust. Cameraman Reid Russell told a detective that Baldwin (left), who he said had been careful with weapons on set, was rehearsing a scene in which he was set to draw his gun while sitting in a church pew and point it at the camera. The camera wasn't rolling when the gun went off 'like a whip and a loud pop', Souza said, before Hutchins complained about her stomach and stumbled to the ground, saying she could not feel her legs, the court documents reveal. The affidavit also reveals there was turmoil on set on the day of the shooting, with several members of the camera crew walking off the production in a dispute over payment and lodging.
PIERS MORGAN: The more we learn about Alec Baldwin's deadly shooting 'accident', the more culpable he looks for being executive producer of a chaotic, dangerous sh*t-show run by amateurish cowboys that made the tragedy an accident waiting to happen
Alec Baldwin believes passionately in gun safety and wants much tighter controls over who can have a gun. The actor thinks fellow Americans should only be allowed to exercise their constitutional right to own firearms if they go through a lengthy stringent procedure to ensure they are fit and proper enough citizens to possess a deadly weapon. It seemed barely believable that a star of his experience and stature could do something so lethally stupid as to fire a loaded gun towards co-workers, especially given his advocacy of gun safety and awareness of hazardous movie sets. But it quickly became clear that Baldwin didn't realize the gun had real ammunition inside it. However, the more we've learned about this appalling incident, the more questions have been raised about Baldwin's own culpability for the chaotically dangerous and amateurish working culture on the set of 'Rust' that led to the shooting. These questions are incredibly serious. The family of the woman who died, Halyna Hutchins (top right, and circled bottom right with Baldwin), deserve and must get answers, and I'm sure they will seek them through criminal and civil lawsuits and courtrooms. Baldwin's called the shooting a 'tragic accident' and said: 'There are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Halyna Hutchins, a wife, mother and deeply admired colleague of ours. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna.' I don't doubt the sincerity of his sadness at the shooting, nor that he had no idea the gun he fired was loaded. But what I do now doubt is Alec Baldwin's depiction of it as a 'tragic accident.' Given what we have discovered about the circumstances leading up to the moment he pulled the trigger, this was an accident waiting to happen.
It was all bad enough without The Insufferable Twat Morgan spewing conspiracy theories. I can't believe that moron is still employed.
Alec Baldwin Fatal Shooting Film AD Was Fired Before For Gun Discharge – Deadline
The uninitiated just assume there's no safety training. There is. Not universal, but there is, in general. Even right wing lunatics don't want to get shot.
The number one rule of gun safety might be that you never point one at a person, but is Alec Baldwin even an owner or a frequent user of firearms? If he happens to be a user of firearms outside of this film production, then he does know better and bears some culpability. However, Baldwin is an actor, and a notably liberal one at that, and so may have no involvement with guns outside of acting. In a film production the safety of weapon handling (including the training of actors using them) is typically the responsibility of specialist weapon handlers. Accidents typically do not have single causes, and there seems to be a long chain of failures that led to this incident. Baldwin may bear additional responsibility in his role as producer, which would suggest that he had some executive control over the film's production, and may have had a role in hiring an inexperienced person as head armourer.
An investigation needs be done as to where that real bullet came from and ended up on the set.
I am wondering if it wasn't intentional...by someone or more.
Alec Baldwin is a dirt bag and always has been , IMHO....
Yeah, but as an actor he simply has to point the gun at somebody and even fire it simply because its part of a script.
So there is no way around him firing guns in somebody's direction.
But more interesting thing is what kind of bullet was that because it was so strong that it went through one person and injured another? Does anybody know the calibre of that pistol?
Criminal charges ARE on the table in Alec Baldwin shooting case, say prosecutors - as it emerges crew were using actor's gun to shoot cans with live ammo just HOURS before tragic death on set
Criminal charges are on the table in a fatal accidental shooting by actor Alec Baldwin on the set of a western film, according to local prosecutors. Legal documents have revealed that Baldwin was drawing a gun across his body and pointing it at a camera during a rehearsal on the Santa Fe set of the film Rust when it fired, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins (inset) and injuring director Joel Souza. Affidavits containing statements from Souza and camera operator Reid Russell state that Baldwin was handed a prop gun and was told it was unloaded. Santa Fe County District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies has now revealed that criminal charges have not been ruled out, saying that the firearm used in the incident was a 'legit' and 'antique-era appropriate gun' - not a prop.
How many guns had Clint Eastwood or John Wayne pointed and fired at someone while the film was rolling when a western film was being made?...Seems there's no way around that so they must be sure 100% it's not loaded...
It's not the caliber necessarily it's the design of bullet itself and shot placement. When you hunt animals with a more substantial body cavity a heavier projectile that expands is required. The idea is for it to expend it's energy in the target. A .357 Magnum using a 158 grain semi jacketed soft point bullet would be generally acceptable to do the job on a whitetail deer but you'd still have to hit it in a vital area or it'll pass through. It stays together upon penetration long enough to hit bone or body mass and then expands to a larger diameter to do the job it's intended to do. For a long time a .357 using a 125 grain hollow point bullet was considered one of the most effective loads a police officer could carry. People aren't built as substantially as game animals and a lighter faster bullet that expands rapidly is sufficient to get in the body, do it's job and stay there.
Military 'ball' ammo for a .45 or 9mm is a poor choice for most things, but will certainly kill. It was designed to wound on a battlefield and it does. The non expanding smooth full metal jackets don't expand or deform much at all and are very likely to simply wound and pass through.
Handguns of the era the movie depicts would typically be in the .44-.45 caliber and the bullet in the 250 grain range but move at a much lower velocity - that's what the metallurgy and materials of the era allowed. Big soft lead bullet that expands like crazy and dumps all that kinetic energy into a human target. Excellent people killer. Who knows what they hell those idiots had in the gun, and that poor woman doesn't look like a very substantial backstop. Had a professional wrestler been standing there it might not have gone through.
Most who are not involved in the sport don't think past the handgun itself. The ammo is a totally different topic. Handloading is as much of a hobby as shooting is. It gets technical, there is no simple answer to that question. It's like asking what the 'best' or 'right' pair of shoes is - depends on what you are doing. People who buy handguns for home defense ( or AR/AK rifles for that matter ) often don't realize that the walls of your home are virtually transparent to those types of projectiles. Great, you neutralized the intruder but killed the family dog on the other side of the wall - or worse. That's why a shotgun with light birdshot is a better choice for that, in fact IMO a 20 gauge is a more sensible choice than a 12. BTW - a simple .22 rimfire has always been the #1 people killer by far.
A picture's worth a thousand words. I'll go root around downstairs later. Here's more than you ever wanted to know about blank ammo from what appears to be an experienced handloader. A cursory glance would tell you that you can't possibly mix up blanks and real ammo. Blanks don't have bullets. You read it you'll see why Brandon Lee died from mishandling a blank. To me it's glaringly evident that there were no professionals on set - the weapons were not secured, live ammo was present and quite obviously nobody checked the damned gun. Looks to me like the armorer and AD who said it was a 'cold gun' are at fault.
Making Blank Ammo | How to Make Ammo | Rifle, Handgun, and Pistol Brass
There was a way around him firing a gun in the direction of the cinematographer and director: they did not need to be physically behind the camera if he was going to shoot in that direction. They could have positioned the camera, and had a live view of what the camera sees on a remote screen in order to give direction without having to be in harm's way. Even firing a blank-loaded gun in the direction of people is dangerous.
Fully jacketed rounds are used by the military because they are the only rounds allowed to be used in warfare under the Hague Conventions. In particular, the Hague Declaration of 1899 bans the use of expanding bullets in warfare.
Treaties, States parties, and Commentaries - Hague Declaration (IV,3) concerning Expanding Bullets, 1899 - Declaration -
It is not so much that they have been especially designed to wound, but that they are considered the most humane, or the least inhumane.
Humane yes as compared to soft lead bullets, but the military logic is wounded people require resources to care for and dead people don't.