CasualBystander
Celestial
Thank you.Even though I am trying "valiantly" to nail your arse to the wall, I second that. Welcome CB, this place just got better for your presence hereAnyway, back to the Fued
Likewise.
Likewise.
Nope, Never said that anywhere, didn't even imply it.
Nope never said that either, but while where on that, Ill screenshot this for convenience.
That's a bucket load of guns,
Compared to Australia
Which has way stricter laws
So I am far more likely to have said gun pointed at me in the US than here. Not something I think many, if any Australian thinks about. Just almost never happens here.
Lol, your version of the real world you mean
Isnt that noble, your gun deaths seems to support the notion that your expectations are optimistic at best.
OK so Oztrailians...really, I could call you an Aussie term, Septic Tank = Yank
We down to disparaging by race, oh wait, you've already done that to your own countrymen earlier by identifying... hang on let me quote you, wouldn't want to be inaccurate now.
We have a bit of racism happening there CB. bit sad but each to there own.
Pardon me? where did I insist the US is in Europe? As for a comparison, its all in the numbers. To which you cling to the wrong ones so desperately. I will reiterate the important ones at the end "Again" since you seem to "Again" miss the point.
Ok so this last bit you sais is utterly meaningless for the argument I am trying to make, and last I checked a person who is inclined to like autoerotic asphyxiation cant in a fit of rage autoerotically asphyxiate a school full of little kids, or 600 concert goers if they were to become unhinged.
Please try and stay on topic here, I know your not an Oztralian, but I will keep it simple for you.
Here is My point, so try and address this one after you get through your next round of irrelevant coments.
In the US I am sure we can at least agree on a couple of points.
Your laws regarding who can own guns are laxer than Oztralia,
Your laws regarding what types of guns you can own are laxer than Oztralia,
The availability, and likelihood of the person living next door to you owning a gun is higher than Oztralia
And here is a big one for me, with those US folks with guns, look at these numbers
Guns in the Family: Firearm Storage Patterns in U.S. Homes with Children
US laws on safe storage are either non existant, or not enforced, not sure which.
Now compare this to us Oztralians.
We have very strict gun laws, over here you have to store your Ammunition and firearms in seperate locked areas, and, get this, if I have a gun safe with my guns in the bottom and my ammunition in the top seperate locked and keyed section, but I leave the ammunition in a magazine. It is a breech of the firearms act.
In Australia the only people who can own semi automatic weapons are professional hunters and these numbers are very few. We can easy enough own high powered rifles, but all magazine loaded, and bolt or lever action.
It is extremely unlikely you will find anything really able to do the kind of damage we regularly see in the US
Hand Guns are effectively illegal to own unless you are a registered collector, or a member of a shooting club.
Very few Aussies own handguns of any sort, those that do are very very well policed.
So here is the bit in particular I would like you to address properly. Given the comparison, and assuming most people in both our countries are responsible and unlikely to go on a rampage.
If you or I in our own respective countries did for whatever reason lose the plot, and go nuts.
Your Gun laws are going to make it far easier for you to commit a mass killing like we so often see. Where dozens or more people are killed.
In Australia who has these strict laws, we have not had a mass killing since Martin Bryan in 1996.
Yes we have gun crimes, yes we have murders. But the facility for a mass killing like Las Vegas just does not exist in Australia.
This is my argument, in my opinion all your other statistics are meaningless when it comes to protecting your people from the irresponsible or the crazy.
Again I will say my argument is about access to guns, and the types of guns you can have.
To quote from the above link....
Many children in the United States have access to firearms in their homes, and the consequences can be tragic. Recent headlines tell a sad and increasingly familiar story: "Boy charged with attempted murder in shooting of 14-year-old girl," "Boy, 4, shot by 6-year-old," "Just a routine school shooting...." Public health agencies, organizations representing children, and groups representing firearm owners offer consistent guidelines about how to store firearms to make them inaccessible to children: unload them, lock them up, and store them separately from ammunition. However, a RAND analysis of data regarding firearm ownership and storage patterns found that of the families in the United States with children and firearms, fewer than half store their firearms unloaded, locked, and away from ammunition.
Guns in the Family: Firearm Storage Patterns in U.S. Homes with Children
Is this what you consider responsible gun ownership in the US, where less than half of gun owners don't even keep there guns in a safe place away from kids?
Our gun laws in Australia simply prevent this from happening. No that's not true, it hardly ever happens, we have careless people too. But our regulations are strict, and regularly enforced.
This is the point I am making.
CasualBystander
Celestial
And again we have an unresponsive word forest.
Do you actually read what I write?
Your viewpoint is so off to the left that I literally don't understand it.
We will take this slow and one point at time.
What is wrong with you? I would never think of putting guns out of the reach of kids. If they can't reach them they can't get them to go out shooting. My dad only put guns in a cabinet (unlocked of course) so they wouldn't fall over or get tripped over.
When we needed to kill something we would grab a gun and go kill it.
As soon as we were able to pick up a gun Dad taught us how to shoot, like any responsible parent.
I get the feeling that Oztralian parents simply aren't responsible, or are "too busy" to teach their kids the basics of life.
Caeldeth
Noble
Shooting a gun and killing something isn't a basic of life. Maybe a hundred years ago but not now. And you seriously would never think of putting a gun away so kids can't get at It? The hell is wrong with you?
I own about 16 firearms. They are all locked away and the ammo is stored in a separate safe. I have my 45 loaded and in a safe with a lock and key next to my bed and the drawer also requires opening another lock to get to it. My son will learn when I feel he is ready. Not when he stumbles upon them.
As a responsible gun owner I also think the 2nd amendment needs to be reworked. The amendment was made when we didn't have a national guard or any real military so we relied on militias. We have a national guard and the best military in the world. Regular citizens shouldn't be able to get there hands on a certain few weapons.
I own about 16 firearms. They are all locked away and the ammo is stored in a separate safe. I have my 45 loaded and in a safe with a lock and key next to my bed and the drawer also requires opening another lock to get to it. My son will learn when I feel he is ready. Not when he stumbles upon them.
As a responsible gun owner I also think the 2nd amendment needs to be reworked. The amendment was made when we didn't have a national guard or any real military so we relied on militias. We have a national guard and the best military in the world. Regular citizens shouldn't be able to get there hands on a certain few weapons.
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CasualBystander
Celestial
Perhaps you aren't raising your kids properly.
If you aren't up to being a successful parent then perhaps you SHOULD lock up your guns.
That reminds me, my daughter has been pestering me to go shooting, I need to see what the nearest range is (it might be Izaak Walton.)
CasualBystander
Celestial
Im not raising my kids properly because I don't want then stumbling into a loaded weapon?
Ah, your children are clumsy. I understand your reticence. Mine aren't.
My daughter likes to play with firearms.
Obviously nothing is wrong with me.
As far as you are concerned, I don't know you well enough to offer a diagnosis.
Caeldeth
Noble
So you want to insult my parenting skills and my kids now? Fuck you buddy.
CasualBystander
Celestial
3FEL9
Islander
These 2 sentences look a bit funny when placed so near eachothers... How do you mean ?
CasualBystander
Celestial
My daughter likes guns.
I used to take her to the range when she was little.
The other part was: I was responding to some criticism that I didn't understand and/or agree with.
As a side note: there is nothing hotter than women and firearms
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3FEL9
Islander
Well then, as long as everyone is safe and happy
Caeldeth
Noble
Return to rational discussion? There isn't anything rational about letting a small child play with firearms. That isn't going to get you a father of the year award it's going to get you a horrible parent award. I don't know how old your daughter is but my son is 3 and I'll be damned if I keep a loaded weapon where he can find it.
Lets all play nice now, lets not insult each other at a level like that. We all love our kids and do what we each think is best for them.
It is not only about teaching kids to be responsible with guns CB. All responsible gun owners should do that.
However there needs to be some common sense that goes with it.
I have taught my kids from a very young age how to drive cars, and ride motorbikes. I had one of my lads at 6 that could drive a 4 wheel drive round our paddocks as good as most adults, at 11 you could have put him in a car, and if you were blindfolded on the back seat not know a kid was driving. He is a natural. However, does that mean I would let him loos unattended, or, at 11 on the roads. Hell no, and it wasn't because it is illegal, it was because it would be silly.
Kids have limitations in understanding that can only come with years, regardless of how responsible or good at something they seem. No matter how well you teach them, kids are still kids, they are not able to process things the same way as adults. That's just a fact.
OK so I am not trying to set yo up here, I promise. But in the heat of the above posts I have gotten a little confused as to what your trying to say.
3 straight forward questions.
1. Are you saying that you keep loaded guns, or guns and ammunition not in locked cabinets or isolated storage, around your house and because you trust that your kids have good gun skills that you have taught them.
2. Can you in your opinion see any correlation between the availability and proliferation of guns in the US, and the many instances of mass shootings we have seen over the years.
3. Given Australia's very strict gun laws, can you see any connection between the fact that we have not had a mass shooting here since our laws were changed after Martin Bryants rampage in 1996
It is not only about teaching kids to be responsible with guns CB. All responsible gun owners should do that.
However there needs to be some common sense that goes with it.
I have taught my kids from a very young age how to drive cars, and ride motorbikes. I had one of my lads at 6 that could drive a 4 wheel drive round our paddocks as good as most adults, at 11 you could have put him in a car, and if you were blindfolded on the back seat not know a kid was driving. He is a natural. However, does that mean I would let him loos unattended, or, at 11 on the roads. Hell no, and it wasn't because it is illegal, it was because it would be silly.
Kids have limitations in understanding that can only come with years, regardless of how responsible or good at something they seem. No matter how well you teach them, kids are still kids, they are not able to process things the same way as adults. That's just a fact.
OK so I am not trying to set yo up here, I promise. But in the heat of the above posts I have gotten a little confused as to what your trying to say.
3 straight forward questions.
1. Are you saying that you keep loaded guns, or guns and ammunition not in locked cabinets or isolated storage, around your house and because you trust that your kids have good gun skills that you have taught them.
2. Can you in your opinion see any correlation between the availability and proliferation of guns in the US, and the many instances of mass shootings we have seen over the years.
3. Given Australia's very strict gun laws, can you see any connection between the fact that we have not had a mass shooting here since our laws were changed after Martin Bryants rampage in 1996
CasualBystander
Celestial
Whine, whine.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf
Actual death statistics are always interesting (under 1/1-4/5-14).
Transport
69/413/883
Non transport Accidents including guns
1,091/803/597
Guns
1/22/26
About 20,000 kids under 1 die from various diseases, a couple thousand 1-4 and 5-14 year olds die from diseases.
Drowning and exposure to smoke kill many more than guns.
Surprisingly poisoning only kills about the same number as guns for 1-4, and 5-14 but 9 times as many < 1.
What is really surprising is poisoning kills 3,492 15-19 year olds.
You can make of it what you like.
For under 15 kids gun accidents aren't a big cause of death. And some if not most of those deaths are likely the accidental discharge of a gun by a parent.
I'd consider putting pistols out of reach, those numbers tell me rifles aren't the problem.
Bump,
Hey CB, you going to answer my questions in post #114 or you done here, just so I know
Cheers
CasualBystander
Celestial
Well, yeah my dad did.
We knew he would whip our ass if we misused a gun so it was never an issue.
Um ok confused now, I had 3 questions in 114, if your done with the thread that's fine. I was just interested to clarify your thoughts
CasualBystander
Celestial
1. Sure.
2. Nope. It does strongly correlate with the expulsion of Conservatives from psychiatry and resulting horrible increase in anti-depressant use. About 33 million Americans are on progressive prescribed anti-depressants. Psychiatry is dominated by progressives. They are crazy and it is contagious. If we banned progressives from the psychiatric field it would almost eliminate mass killings.
3. Americans commit more non-gun homicides than Oztralians do homicides period. They have twice as many auto accidents. They have about twice as many fatal (non-auto) accidents.
They are two wildly different countries.
So hypothetically a visitor, or visitors kids, or one of your kids friends, who perhaps has no interest or background or training in guns could pick it up. You don't think unsecured weapons are a risk obviously. But why is this any different for example for me not securing say an huge excavation for a building site that may have a big hole. This puts others at risk and is my responsibility to secure. You say you are a responsible gun owner, I find it hard to understand how unsecured loaded weopans are not a danger.
Wow, I don't even know how to respond to that one.
So...
You can't see any argument that says if you were to remove (As Australia did) all the semi Automatics, all the handguns, and really tighten up your gun laws. With no semi automatic weapons available, mass shootings would be lessened.
Yes but that is unrelated to the fact that we have not had a mass shooting since 1996, because it is very very difficult in Australia for the average non gun licensed person to even gain access to a gun, let alone something capable of killings of the nature we see in the US. Of course criminals will always have access to guns, I agree. But a lot of your mass killings are from just normal folks who lose the plot and have an environment like it appears your house is where they can just go grab an unsecured gun and boom.
Here in Australia, someone who is say not part of the criminal element, just your average person next door, would be far far more likely to be nailed by the police if they went hunting for an unlicensed gun just by asking around, long before they found one. And with our laws about securing weapons in locked cabinets, there is no way if say one of my sons went crazy could come home and gain access to my guns. I have them locked in a cabinet like below. the ammunition is in the locked upper section, which has separate keys to the main door.I don't store the keys for each section in the same location and no one knows where I put them anyway. When I was married, not even my wife knew. One son did as he was a licensed gun owner and shared the gun cabinet space.
The cabinet is Dyna bolted to the concrete through the bottom, and coach bolted to the wall through the back.
How is this small compromise that keeps your weapons safe and secure an infringement on your rights.
To most people I imagine it makes a lot of sense to secure guns.
This is a bit of an uneducated statement, but viewing from afar, it seems to me that your trained military personnel have stricter control, tighter regulations and more respect for guns than the average American. And your military folks do guns for a living and receive more training in there safe use than anyone.
Doesn't this hint at something in the back of your mind about your gun laws.
